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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 14, 2016 13:47:22 GMT -5
I thought I recently saw a "cleaned up" version of EGG's original Greyhawk Dungeon Level One, but now I cannot find it. I thought I saw it on Wizards' website, but now I don't see it there. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? It was supposed to be the original Greyhawk Dungeon Level One, as drawn by EGG, not a later version by EGG+Kuntz. I know there are scans out there of a few levels, such as the below website, but that's not what I'm talking about: zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2015/03/visualizing-castle-greyhawk.htmlWhat I'm talking about is a version that some Wizards of the Coast or TSR cartographer did, based on EGG's original Greyhawk Dungeon Level One.
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Post by Scott on Feb 14, 2016 14:40:40 GMT -5
I think it was Eric Shook, but I'll have to dredge around a bit.
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Post by Scott on Feb 14, 2016 14:54:18 GMT -5
Allan has something on his greyhawkonline.com site called The History and Development of Castle Greyhawk that has an original level 1 map on it.
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Post by grodog on Feb 17, 2016 14:45:00 GMT -5
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Post by Scott on Feb 17, 2016 15:10:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the full address. I was looking for it myself.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 18, 2016 7:44:06 GMT -5
Where is that map from?
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 18, 2016 9:04:35 GMT -5
Thanks Allan. Slide 11 is what I was looking for. I saw that map somewhere online recently, and I was unable to find it again, and it was driving me crazy! I thought I read somewhere that it was based on the original "Mark I" Greyhawk Dungeon Level One as drawn by EGG, simply redrawn by a cartographer to create a neat version for posterity. Can you tell me where you got it from?
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 18, 2016 11:36:05 GMT -5
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Post by grodog on Feb 18, 2016 13:34:51 GMT -5
I took Eric's original pictures, printed them, and filled them in (where fill was merely sketched), etc., for each of the 6 levels that he had produced for Gary. Level 1 was the most complete, IIRC---some of the others don't show doors, stairwells, etc.
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Post by Scott on Feb 18, 2016 14:51:18 GMT -5
I can't look at the link right now, Gene. I think that is 2 or 3. I have pictures of level 2 and 3 from the original dungeon that I yanked when they were making their rounds.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 18, 2016 18:44:24 GMT -5
So they're saying that the level shown is by Eric Shook? I wonder if that is what Eric Shook was referring to when he said he had done the Greyhawk map when we, Rob and I, were having a conversation about the city? He seemed kind of blunt when he said that.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 18, 2016 22:15:28 GMT -5
I find this gathering of information now even more confusing. It makes me wonder if could CASTLE ZAGYG products could ever have met the demands of someone who wanted it as THE standard dungeon?
My many-leveled nightmare dungeons of the 80's seem better than what I saw so far in the CZ series because they had to be.
On one level for my personal gaming, I need to see layouts of unreleased Castle Greyhawk products because thats when the reverse engineering of making the actual vision of what Castle Greyhawk would look like will start. Even if I never play it I would still like to clean it up and look at it. On the other hand, will I have waited too long and not have the energy?
I just wish there was some kind of consensus to get past all the BS and nail Gail Gygax to the wall on getting something published already.
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Post by Scott on Feb 19, 2016 10:55:11 GMT -5
Well, again, I was very happy with the 1st dungeon level, and even the Mouths of Madness section, but the default setting and most of the ruins don't work for me. There's a reason why the original dungeon was 2 - 3 miles away from town, and the Moathouse, and the Caves of Chaos. The distance and the insane number of random encounter checks required just to get to the primary campaign dungeon doesn't work for low level characters, and takes away from the fun in general. And while I like the maps of the Upper Works, and a few of the encounters, most of it is a boring slog with too little gain.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 19, 2016 10:57:28 GMT -5
I'd also like to see the raw materials going into the product. I'm actually more interested in that, than in the finished product -- if 'finished' is by someone other than EGG. I want to know what the 1970's Greyhawk Dungeons were like... not what someone's updated version for the 21st century is like.
I can imagine a version I would have been happy with... if it were given the same treatment that Rob applied to "Bottle City."
Sadly, now that EGG is gone, that treatment is impossible because we can never get his commentary alongside the keyed areas, the way RJK did it with Bottle City...
I think a mixture of the better "Up on a Soapbox" reminiscences alongside dungeon key and commentary on the original maps would have been ideal.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 19, 2016 13:17:06 GMT -5
Allan wrote:
Allan, would you be willing to share these?
Also: who drew the hand-drawn map shown on slide 12 of your presentation?
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 19, 2016 15:02:21 GMT -5
I don't think its modern techniques that are bad for the potential product I believe it is advantageous techniques (overwriting for more pay, fulfilling mainstream agenda, careful IP dodging, etc.) of any age that ruined CASTLE ZAGYG and other product since the 1970's. CZ for the future has to be removed from the nerd culture and especially career nerds.
Ideally, I would like a just the facts coffee table book that has a map on one side and a key of monsters, entries, traps, tricks and treasure on the other page.
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Post by Scott on Feb 19, 2016 16:11:17 GMT -5
I think you still have a few individuals that could provide similar anecdotes, but Gail has completely alienated everybody involved, and she seems delusional about the value of Gary's IP.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 19, 2016 17:08:24 GMT -5
Honestly? I have no idea who Gygax was in real life. He did seem like the antithesis of the awkward toadies that were following him around. Gail sounds like a reasonable person but it seemed she was always defended on the internet by the same weird stooges that surrounded Gary making it seem as if she is a "quart low" in outlook.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 19, 2016 17:24:16 GMT -5
As far as I can tell, Gygax Games didn't implode -- it just hasn't produced anything other than legal saber-rattling -- which makes me wonder if that is all it was ever intended to do!
I like the bare-bones coffee table book idea. At this point, I think that would be the only responsible approach. That could be possible: a quality hard-bound book with thick paper and scans of all of the original maps and notes. Then perhaps a section of interviews with people who played in the original Greyhawk campaign. Research such as what Allan has done could be included, with sources cited.
That way, everyone could have the raw material to make their own Greyhawk Dungeons, without having to do any reverse-engineering.
And, it would make a nice historical document.
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Post by Scott on Feb 19, 2016 19:35:26 GMT -5
Well, prior to his passing, Gary did state that he had plans in place to keep all of the projects he was involved with running as is. This includes the CZ Dungeon and the Gord re-prints. That I know from Gary personally. It's possible he was lying, but I doubt it. I know he really liked working with the Trolls. Second hand info: Gail never liked TLG and thought he could make more money with another company, but Gary stuck with the Trolls because he liked what they were about. After Gary passed away, Gail yanked all of the deals in place, and tried putting together a new deal with Fast Forward for LA. What kind of terrible business decision is that? The dungeons were by far the biggest demand, and Gord did well too. Gary's personality was the only thing that ever kept LA on the radar. That deal fell through. I heard rumors of an online or computer game of some kind, but that fizzled too, if it was ever true. In Gail's defense, I think she was listening to some very bad advice from individuals that had more of an in on the LA side.
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