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Post by Scott on Mar 14, 2016 15:35:33 GMT -5
Yeah, that looks like it. Why did they change that? The setup they went with is terrible. Unplayable for starting characters as presented. Maybe I'll just cut out a bunch of the Upper Works fluff and try that.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 14, 2016 16:11:32 GMT -5
Yeah, that looks like it. Why did they change that? The setup they went with is terrible. Unplayable for starting characters as presented. Maybe I'll just cut out a bunch of the Upper Works fluff and try that. Probably the bum rush for WOTC to put out EXPEDITION TO THE RUINS OF GREYHAWK in 2007 was what made them alter it. Gary was not interested in what they did with Greyhawk at all just where it was glaring contradiction. Hearing a product was coming out about CASTLE GREYHAWK ust before the ZAGYG dungeon was probably enough to set him off but of course he had no idea it would be the same old repackaged and brain dead "canon" that they regurged over and over from the comedy module.
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Post by Scott on Mar 14, 2016 21:02:59 GMT -5
There were a few elements in the CZ Upper Works that I liked, but if "Mocking up the Greyhawk Castle dungeons" is really a goal, how much detail would you give them? Originally they were nothing more than a bit of descriptive text. In the expanded dungeons they were detailed. What are your preferences?
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 15, 2016 7:18:10 GMT -5
The "Bottle City" treatment and level of detail seems about right. This is why the EGG/RJK split on this project is so frustrating -- it could have been that sort of treatment applied to the Dungeons overall!
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 15, 2016 8:21:26 GMT -5
I would pace it at GD style description if I was going all out and balls to the wall:
but if I didn't have time I'd suffice with the style and content of the original MONSTER AND TREASURE ASSORTMENT (1977):
and if it came down it'd be a mix with GD style for Fraz, the Stone Face and Jeweled Man then every other area have the M&TA treatment.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 15, 2016 8:25:23 GMT -5
I wonder if the binder layouts were a post-modern reaction to not put too much detail into something that is going to be invaded and dismantled.
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Post by Scott on Mar 15, 2016 8:36:43 GMT -5
My Stats grow the longer the encounter area lasts. When first statting a level it looks like this: 136. 3rd Level Cleric, 3rd Level Fighter, 7 M-A-A + Treasure
Given enough time, I'll flesh them out to almost published module detail: 301. Bugbear Guard Post. Six bugbears are on guard here. They will move to investigate noise or light to the north. Bugbears (6): AC: 5; Move: 9”; HD: 3+1; HP: 19, 16, 15, 15, 14, 13; THAC0: 16; Attacks: 1; Damage: 1d6 (throwing axe) or 2d4 (bardiche). Surprise 3 in 6. Treasure: 15 CP, 12 SP, 6 SP, 5 GP each.
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Post by Scott on Mar 16, 2016 12:55:50 GMT -5
The Black Reservoir story, and some old e-mails from Ernie, both describe a layout where the upper works were just scenery on the way to the Dungeon. Or there was a fast path through the ruins to the dungeons, and you had to search the more out of the way areas for encounters. The latter is the direction I've been moving my ruins in.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 16, 2016 15:57:56 GMT -5
I think all the setting in the modules about them being in "the World of Greyhawk" was an afterthought and the module concept originated as castle portal areas. Just think about D3 being arrived at through a magic mirror for instance.
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Post by Scott on Mar 20, 2016 8:04:59 GMT -5
The GD series grew out of a tournament that had no Greyhawk background. I don't think the 'World' concept had really taken off yet. Same with a lot of the earliest published modules. And then came T1. The Village of Hommlet was the first adventure written specifically to introduce players into a world. Everything that came after that was either retro-fitted if it pre-dated T1, or was written with the WoG mindset.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 20, 2016 9:08:21 GMT -5
I know though the concepts probably arrived as portals because all the locales have total isolation
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Post by Scott on Mar 20, 2016 11:22:56 GMT -5
I know very little about how the published adventures fit in with the ongoing campaign, besides the ToEE. Of course there are the adventures that were stated as part of the dungeon: EX 1, EX2, and Isle of the Ape. Outside of that I know Robilar and Tenser both adventured in the Tomb of Horrors and Melf did Tsojcanth (playtesting the re-written for publication version I think) and Tharizdun, but I have no info on how they got there. By the time Melf was playing, the bigger world had come into play. Mordenkainen and Co. had been re-located to somewhere on the northwest of Gary's home version of the Flanaess and Melf was one of his vassals.
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Post by grodog on Mar 20, 2016 20:20:14 GMT -5
My understanding from Rob is that the G1-3/D1-3 and T1-2 modules were run in the campaign, and that the versions used to run the G/D Origins '78 tournaments were identical in content to the published mono modules (since the modules went on sale after the tourney concluded; other than lacking the tourney PCs).
Tsojconth and the original tourney version of Tomb of Horrors both include direct campaign references in them. I'll have to check the Origins S3 to see if that includes any GH materials too.
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Post by Merkholz on Mar 21, 2016 7:17:40 GMT -5
Don't you Think that the teleporters in G1-3 were added as a way to "skip" the Campaign World and just focus on the adventures and dungeons? It isn't unlikely that similar teleport effects/locations were added to incorporate new "dungeons" into play whenever neeeded.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 21, 2016 8:45:10 GMT -5
That hippogriff pic by Tramp for G1 seems out of place and the first comment if you arrived by hippogriff seems to be hiding something. ANd wasn't it removed for G1-3 compilation?
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Post by Scott on Mar 21, 2016 9:09:07 GMT -5
I read some game account where it states that the party arrived by hippogriffs. Wasn't there a story about that in an old Dragon maybe?
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 21, 2016 10:33:37 GMT -5
I was referring to the opening "START" of G3:
and the image with the two heroes dismounting hippogriffs by the front doot which is probably THE best image of the module is missing.
Perhaps in development that image was a painting in CASTLE GREYHAWK and once they ditched the idea and placed it in the WORLD OF GREYHAWK it seemed out of place once the compilation G1-3 was put out so they axed it as it reminded them of another direction. It is a fantastic image and their seems to be no reason to pull it.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 21, 2016 11:01:33 GMT -5
I've taken a photo to show how key and memorable this image was:
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Post by Scott on Mar 21, 2016 11:28:57 GMT -5
I think it was removed from later versions. But there was a write up in Dragon where is does state the party arrived at the Fire Giant Hall on Hippofriffs. But I can't remember if it was a tournament or not.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 21, 2016 11:39:49 GMT -5
I just looked through DRAGONs and didn't see a reference to hippogriff or hippogriffs
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