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Post by geneweigel on Jul 24, 2014 13:28:02 GMT -5
I like the idea of the gaming bus/pilgrimage. As a teen I used to say drive to Pacific Ocean for no reason but the trip across America with no goal except hanging out. Those ideas seemed hampered the minute that I got hooked up with a girl, of course! Then having kids its like "What the fuck was I thinking?" I think in my cousin Bill's mind that his trip to Lake Geneva in 2007 was his version of my idea and now he can move on. He still wants to play D&D but he said he's done with big trips. I think he was horrified by Rob Kuntz to tell you the truth. And some of the other con goers didn't help his opinion of gamers either as he didn't know how to navigate through the dimbulbs and was assuming I buddied up with everybody. Whatever happened to the Pittsburgh gaming mini-convention idea? That would be great but the logistics and motivation of getting a "co-pilot". I can get plenty of co-pilots" but quality? Nope.
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Post by GT on Aug 3, 2014 11:51:31 GMT -5
Howdy! Another drive by... ^__^ Dorgha was Bakluni--check out Paul Stormberg's interview with Gary. And the EEG's name was Paul's devising; I choose to use Gary's variations on "Khalkru"! (also, I think the bit about the EEG influencing Dorgha was not Gary's invention...) GT
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Post by GT on Aug 3, 2014 11:59:15 GMT -5
And, GW (whom I shall always think reverently of as "Fireball"); at this stage of life I would jump aboard said bus and ride into glory, perishing in the depths of the Tomb of Acererak!
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Post by Scott on Aug 3, 2014 12:00:22 GMT -5
The Dorgha write up I am familiar with starts out with: "I have discovered a heretofore unmentioned deity of the World of Greyhawk, one Dorgha Torgu, an old Suloise god. I will do a brief write-up of same for the Greyhawk Grimoire." Complete write up: doomsdaygames.proboards.com/thread/175/dorgha-torgu
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Post by GT on Aug 3, 2014 12:04:19 GMT -5
Here is from Paul's interview with Gary:
Q: What was the nature of the Rain of Colorless Fire (the 1983 WoG boxed set only says "...in return for the terrible magical attack [ID], the Suloise lands were inundated by a nearly invisible fiery rain which killed all creatures it struck, burned all living things, ignited the landscape with colorless flame, and burned the very hills themselves into ash.")? A: It, the Rain of Colorless Fire, was, as the Invoked Devastation, a magic of incredible power, absolutely lost to Oerth - and especially to all NPCs and PCs alike. So to all wondering about those mighty magical powers, forget them!!! Q: Who were the casters and what type of spell, device, effects, etc. were employed? If a group of PC's were caught in the RoCF trying to intervene what would their chances be? A: If the PCs are to be there, they can kiss their "lives" goodbye. What happened was a release of power akin to what a major god would employ, like one making land of sea. The deity involved in this exchange, one Dorgha Torgu, paid dearly for his meddling with such unnatural power. I had written up this deity in my notes but had never entered him into the rolls of Greyhawk gods; that was for later.
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Post by GT on Aug 3, 2014 12:09:09 GMT -5
I suspect that Gary simply mis-typed... rather like when in his earliest interviews online he claimed that the Scarlet Brotherhood kidnapped Thrommel on behalf of Iuz and later said Nyrond (which made no sense to me...)Also, he pretty much left the Suel gods to Len; while saying that he had never fully detailed the Bakluni gods (hence, I added Dorgha from Paul's interview and made up Xerkway and Halimab (Father of the Pantheon) for my own Greyhawk campaign.
HALIMAB (Creation, Law) Greater Deity ARMOR: -10 MOVE: 15" HIT POINTS: 400 NUMBER OF ATTACKS: 2 DAMAGE/ATTACK: 10 - 100 SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below MAGIC RESISTANCE: 120% SIZE: L (8') ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral WORSHIPPERS’ ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral or good SYMBOL: Scimitar over three stars PLANE: Arcadia CLERIC/DRUID: 25th lvl Cleric FIGHTER: 12th lvl Fighter MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 20th lvl in each THIEF/ASSASSIN: Nil MONK/BARD: Nil PSIONIC ABILITY: I Attack/Defense Modes: S: 22 I: 25 W: 25 D: 22 C: 25 CH: 24
This is the supreme deity of the Bakluni Pantheon (known as “The True Faith” by its adherents), the father of Istus, Dorgha Torgu and Xerkway. He is the giver of Bakluni law, and all are expected to abide by his tenets. Even the more true neutral-aligned of that folk pay some homage to this deity. It was Halimab who stripped Dorgha Torgu of his powers and rendered him a quasi-deity after that god caused the Rain of Invisible Fire to strike the Suel nation; an act of divine intervention that was unsanctioned by the Bakluni gods lest the Suel deities retaliate! This he accomplished through the use of his unique power of Divine Edict which enables him to manipulate the reality (such as bestowing or taking away power) of any other deity in the Bakluni pantheon. If forced into combat, Halimab wields a +5 staff which he may transform into a +5 scimitar at will. In either form, this weapon inflicts 10 - 100 points of positive energy damage. These attacks will obliterate any non-deitific undead that he strikes. He may be hit only by weapons of +5 or better. Halimab appears as older, muscular man with dark olive skin. His eyes are jet-black and piercing, and his hair and beard are black with gray streaks. He generally wears a white dishdasha robe and a grey jubba coat. He is primarily worshipped by the Tribes of the Paynims, Ull, Ket, Tusmit, Ekbir, and the Sultanate of Zeif. The Tiger Nomads and the Wolf Nomads give him service as well, but are inclined towards deities such as Kurell and Telchur.
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Post by GT on Aug 3, 2014 12:16:37 GMT -5
I've got to go for now; I have a full-time job again, but at just over half of what I was making before. I'm there til 11 PM tonight, so if I'm still fairly awake, I'll try to stop by again. Auf!! GT
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Post by Scott on Aug 3, 2014 12:19:39 GMT -5
I must be missing it. I'm not getting that Dorgha was Baklunish. The write up I quoted goes on to say: "It is said that Dorgha Torgu is the outcast of the deities of Oerth. This is because he is the one from whom came the Rain of Colorless Fire upon the Suloise Empire, thus violating both his Neutrality and his charge." In addition to the opening line that states he's Suloise, I've always read "charge" as those that were his responsibility.
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Post by GT on Aug 3, 2014 22:43:36 GMT -5
Read on to where it states: " (As an aside, it is thought that this is because he has the secret backing Istus, who would see her fellow restored to his place if Dorgha Torgu can earn such. It is speculated that the opportunity to make amends for his offense will come only when he in such weakened state.)"... Istus being a Bakluni goddess! ^__^
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Post by GT on Aug 3, 2014 22:47:57 GMT -5
Here, word-for-word, is the entirety of Paul's interview statistics: Dorgha Torgu (Outcast of the Gods) GREATER POWER (fallen, now a QUASI-POWER) Racial Origin: Baklunish Areas of Control: Material Dimensions, Material Elements Alignment: N(G) Plane: Prime Material (Oerth) Sex: Male It is said that Dorgha Torgu is the outcast of the deities of Oerth. This is because he is the one from whom came the Rain of Colorless Fire upon the Suloise Empire, thus violating both his Neutrality and his charge. While the Invoked Devastation of the Suel was wrought through the vilest of the Evil powers, the counter response was unjust despite provocation. Swayed by the evil counsel of Vilp-akf'cho Rentaq, that alien thing which is called an Elder Elemental God, Dorgha Torgu bent dimensions and loosed unnatural elements in his charge so as to precipitate upon the Suel realm the near-invisible and unquenchable flames that consumed the land, burning even rock to powdery ash. Shunned now by all deities not of malign bent, Dorgha Torgu, the Outcast of the Gods, wanders his domain in remorse. Torn between anger at his treatment, which he feels is unjust, and remorse, this deity seeks some means of rebuking his peers even while proving himself as worthy in their eyes. Despite the blandishments of those of Evil nature, Dorgha Torgu has not turned to them. Clearly he regrets listening to the Elder Elemental God long ago, and is wise enough to understand that to follow Evil now would simply confirm the judgment of those who have made him a pariah. Thus, Dorgha Torgu is also rejected by those gods and goddesses of malign sort. He is indeed a true outcast. Acknowledged and venerated by Baklunish "purists" (for reasons now distasteful in the extreme to him) and a handful of other savants who are aware of the circumstances, Dorgha Torgu is no longer able to wield vast powers. He is now a mere quasi-god with powers akin to those of a Cleric--Magic-User--Paladin of 18th level each (with the ability to move into the material dimensions and the surrounding plane, compound elements to form things thus, and, of course, to assume mortal form at will). Brought low thus through his own error and the judgment of his peers, Dorgha Torgu roams about, often in material form, vainly looking for that which will redeem him in the eyes of the Greater Gods. As with all things, there is a means by which the outcast can restore his lost repute, but he must manage the matter without assistance from any of deital sort. In mortal guise, this deity can assume any form -- male or female, young or old, handsome or ugly, and so forth. When in human guise, however, Dorgha Torgu has abilities of diminished sort, even from his relatively lowly quasi-deity status. (As an aside, it is thought that this is because he has the secret backing of Istus, who would see her fellow restored to his place if Dorgha Torgu can earn such. It is speculated that the opportunity to make amends for his offense will come only when he in such weakened state.) Thus, Dorgha Torgu has but mortal powers, albeit considerable ones, and can not, of course, be truly slain but merely destroyed in material form and sent to his own demi-plane for a time for recuperation. Dorgha Torgu as a mortal has the combined abilities of a Cleric and a Paladin. He may opt to have the former at 12th level ability and the latter at 8th level, or vice versa. In either case he can also use each of the following spells twice per day: Dimension Door, Passwall, Rock to Mud, Teleport, Wall of Stone. In roaming through the world, Dorgha Torgu helps those who seek to reverse evil things, to aid those who have been wronged, and to otherwise help those suffering injustices. This he does from remorse, not because he believes such a course will restore him to his lost status. Of course, it is surely some such humble act that will set him on the course of attaining that which he seeks.
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Post by GT on Aug 3, 2014 22:52:11 GMT -5
And here's how I statted him (note: I made him "cavalier" as opposed to "paladin", because he tends towards Neutral and Good, not Lawful Good!)
DORGHA TORGU (Elements, Energy, Material Dimensions) Greater Deity [currently a quasi-deity] ARMOR: -7 [-2] MOVE: 15" HIT POINTS: 335 [85] NUMBER OF ATTACKS: See below DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below SPECIAL DEFENSES: +3 or better weapon to hit [+1 or better to hit] MAGIC RESISTANCE: 95% SIZE: M (6') ALIGNMENT: Neutral (Good tendencies) WORSHIPPERS’ ALIGNMENT: Neutrals SYMBOL: White eight-pointed star PLANE: Prime Material (Oerth) CLERIC/DRUID: 18th lvl Cleric/15th lvl Druid [18th lvl cleric] FIGHTER: 18th lvl Cavalier [18th lvl cavalier] MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 20th lvl Magic-user [18th lvl magic-user] THIEF/ASSASSIN: Nil MONK/BARD: Nil PSIONIC ABILITY: I Attack/Defense Modes: All/all S: 20 I: 24 W: 20 D: 21 C: 23 CH: 21 In his anger at the Suel Empire’s use of an evil artifact affiliated with Tharizdun to unleash the Invoked Devastation upon the Bakluni [it is rumored that he was one of the deities who imprisoned the Dark Lord], Dorgha Torgu retaliated with the Rain Of Invisible Fire which destroyed the Suel Imperium. For this impetuous use of divine powers, Dorgha Torgu was stripped of most of his powers and rendered a quasi-deity by Halimab, until such time as that deity feels he has served adequate penance! As a quasi-deity, he has the abilities noted in italics above, as well as the innate power to move through the Prime, Elemental and Energy Planes at will. When in human guise, however, Dorgha Torgu has abilities of diminished sort, even from his relatively “lowly” quasi-deity status. (As an aside, it is thought that this is because he has the secret backing of Istus, who would see her fellow restored to his place if Dorgha Torgu can earn such. It is speculated that the opportunity to make amends for his offense will come only when he in such weakened state.) Thus, Dorgha Torgu has but mortal powers, albeit considerable ones, and cannot, of course, be truly slain but merely destroyed in material form and sent to his own demi-plane for a time for recuperation. Dorgha Torgu as a mortal has the combined abilities of a Cleric and a Cavalier. He may opt to have the former at 12th level ability and the latter at 8th level, or vice versa. In either case he can also use each of the following spells twice per day: Dimension Door, Passwall, Rock to Mud, Teleport, Wall of Stone. In roaming through the world, Dorgha Torgu helps those who seek to reverse evil things, to aid those who have been wronged, and to otherwise help those suffering injustices. This he does from remorse, not because he believes such a course will restore him to his lost status. Of course, it is surely some such humble act that will set him on the course of attaining that which he seeks. Dorgha Torgu has few temples currently (mostly with the Tribes of the Paynims), but it is rumored that he visits those that do exist incognito to see if all is well. Most of his worshippers tend to be savants and magic-users, or clerics who carry on in his honor until the time of his redemption. There is also a small “purist” cult that venerates him as a deity who will someday return and wipe all but the faithful Bakluni from the world (a concept that the deity views with great distaste!). When this deity is restored to his former glory, it is certain that the Bakluni pantheon as a whole will profit. He currently appears as an aged man with white hair and beard wearing a gray robe and white kheffiyeh, and carrying a simple staff; or wearing chainmail and carrying a scimitar (+3). His eyes are brown and bright, and somewhat intense due to his zeal. (Gary stated somewhere that his eyes "bulged" somewhat due to his commitment at redemption... I toned that down to "intense", as befitting a deity! ^__^)
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Post by GT on Aug 3, 2014 23:21:57 GMT -5
You know; in the Gord books Gary hinted that it was the distilled essence of "shadowfire", as breathed by Duskdrakes, that was used in the Rain Of Colorless Fire. I wonder how Dorgha pulled that off...
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Post by GT on Aug 3, 2014 23:36:55 GMT -5
Going back to Corellon; the bit about the blood making elves is directly from the "Deities & Demigods" manual by Rob and Jim; and maybe Lawrence did devise that deity. I, too, have a bit of a problem with that legend, which is why I phrased it as "it is said". As to Non-human deities, I have NO problem with those, because some of the races at least predate humans--so why have human gods? The EEG's are certainly not of human origin... This is not to say that elves can't worship Ehlonna or dwarves Ulaa, for example, but demi-humans in general certainly have a different weltanschauung from most humans. ^__^
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Post by GT on Aug 4, 2014 0:05:43 GMT -5
almost forgot! The Kara-tur stuff I used because; yes, Gary green-lighted it at the time! Francois had some general ideas that Gary liked, but Gary got caught up in the whole California/media scene and then the Lorraine/Blumes hydra raised its head; Mr. Cook was handed some basic notes and Gary told him to do something with them and he did. Read the intro from OA and Gary gives his blessing (perhaps in haste, but that's how it rolled!) Thus, I utilize it, along with my version of Gonduria (Gary gave me "Africa" and "prehistoric creatures", and that's all I got...) and Frank's "Aquaria/Empyria". Gary also stated numerous times that Francois' Lynn (or, Lhynn ^__^) was on the far west of Oerik... so there we go! Gary stated four continents: Oerik, Kara-tur (or, Suhfang, et. al. if you prefer), Gonduria, and Aquaria. That makes four continents in my book, and I don't use "new math"! ^__^
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Post by Scott on Aug 4, 2014 8:03:00 GMT -5
Hmmm. "Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter."
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 4, 2014 8:33:16 GMT -5
I went over Rain of Colorless Fire/Invoked Devastation with Gary and it was a mess. Just like the conversation about Tharizdun. These things in Gary's view are vast canvases which many possibilities are waiting. I think that is the thing.
In regards to ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (1985) being official yeah but only certain elements in a sort of half-life. The honor system contradicts what Gary said as its irrelevant to play because they didn't have time to attach and integrate it to the AD&D system (XP). Another contradiction in the Gygax foreword is the absence of Chinese versus Japanese weaponry in order to establish the IP world (Kara-Tur). I know that Froideval had a French magazine article of a Samurai AD&D class which was later, in another French article, made official by Gygax. If someone knows how to get a copy of the second article you could use it as a Rosetta stone to "de-Cook/de-Breault" the hardcover and replace whole areas. One thing that I would do is remove more nomenclature from Asian to simple English and more parallels. The monsters need a complete overhaul.
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Post by GT on Aug 4, 2014 12:07:24 GMT -5
Yeah, there were certainly some inconsistencies and it's heavily-weighted toward Nihon; but you can make it work. I actually made a "world map" and managed to fit the Kara-tur continent (which was closer to Aquaria than Oerik is!) Gonduria I stuck mostly south of the equator southeast of Kara-tur and southwest of Oerik. Ironically, Hepmonaland is larger than Aquaria, but I view Hepmonaland as similar to Greenland--a very large island, but affiliated with Oerik; whereas Aquaria was stated to be its own continental mass by Gary and Frank. I've been toying with four classes for Jahind: Rajput (sort of a cavalier with some martial arts--check out "Deadliest Warrior" from Spike TV, season two, to get a general idea), Thuggee (assassins mostly serving the deity Kaaldevi), Jadugar (mage), and Pandit(priest). Well, gotta leave in thirty minutes, so I'll see ya later!
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 4, 2014 13:57:01 GMT -5
I think one of the things that I keep right upfront in regards to the Orient of Greyhawk is to keep in mind Gary's stand on angels:
I think after Gygax lost control of ORIENTAL ADVENTURES, this guideline was thrown out, judging from the way those post-Gygax TSR people involved talk about that time I can imagine them behaving like "the boss is on vacation" permanently, so thats why OA doesn't seem like its from an imaginary time like D&D.
There is a damning absence of creative original content that D&D has and ORIENTAL ADVENTURES does not.
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Post by Scott on Aug 4, 2014 14:51:05 GMT -5
But angels did show up as devas, planetars and solars.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 4, 2014 16:14:30 GMT -5
Yes, thats the point. Nowhere in the Bible does an angel summon a phoenix, a ki-rin or a titan but a solar does. Clearly the solars are a universal, Gygaxian "monster" done in good taste and is clearly not included in the OA monster list. Not one OA monster is done in the D&D fashion its as if they want bogus authenticism by grabbing the first myth and legend they found.
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