peter
Prestidigitat
Posts: 7
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Post by peter on Jul 31, 2014 11:03:05 GMT -5
I dont think Ungoliath is a Maiar as such. Rather something from the outside. She came from the darkness that surrounds Arda. I too thinks Bombadil does not really fit in. He seems to powerful not to be a greater god. Could he be Illuvatar popping in to watch how everything is unfolding ? (Well I know that is not backed up by anything, just a wild idea. (If I had created the world I too would check up on it from time to time) Now that I am running wild with ideas, I have another question. Have Illuvatar foreseen everything that will happen ? It seems to me that he has, but does that imply that there is no free will ? Peter
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Post by GRWelsh on Jul 31, 2014 11:29:16 GMT -5
I suppose you could be correct if Maiar strictly means "people of the Valar," then there might be other spirits who have entered Arda which may not be considered that. But presumably all of these spirits are all Ainu created by Iluvatar at some point, and then become whatever they are when they enter Arda.
If Tom Bombadil is JRRT's conception of Iluvatar -- then I'd be disappointed. I think he is just supposed to be an enigma, and/or a powerful ancient nature spirit representative of neutrality or an alternative point of view.
In the Tolkien Professor podcast, Corey Olsen discusses Iluvatar's foresight, and he seems to come to the conclusion that it is both true that Iluvatar can see the future and also that people are free. Iluvatar just sort of improvises, based on what people freely choose to do, and still works things out to the goal he wants.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jul 31, 2014 11:45:45 GMT -5
On the other hand, I've just been inspired to put a gate to Middle Earth in my Greyhawk dungeon. A little1st Age adventure. Scott, what is your idea for the 1st Age adventure?
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 31, 2014 17:30:25 GMT -5
Methinks the Ungoliant story is a non-Tolkienism added to legitimize some of the weaker parts of the SILMARILLION text by namedropping an old forgotten monster from the legitimate trilogy text into this random role in a creation story solely because they (Tolkien's son and Kay) had an actual "ye olde" name to go with.
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Post by Scott on Aug 1, 2014 9:43:07 GMT -5
On the other hand, I've just been inspired to put a gate to Middle Earth in my Greyhawk dungeon. A little1st Age adventure. Scott, what is your idea for the 1st Age adventure? I'm at the beach right now; I haven't been able to put too much thought into it yet.
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 1, 2014 10:32:10 GMT -5
Ah, good for you -- have fun at the beach.
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 1, 2014 11:02:09 GMT -5
There are earlier versions of the Ungoliant story in THE BOOK OF LOST TALES Part 1 (pp. 151-2) and MORGOTH'S RING (pp. 98-101). So it's not just an invention of Kay and Christopher Tolkien. From what I've read, Chapter 22, "Of the Ruin of Doriath" is the one that was actually written by Kay and CT, and therefore the most controversial. I found this from a Q&A here: tolkien.slimy.com/faq/External.html
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 1, 2014 12:01:14 GMT -5
Yeah but I believe that Tolkien's son takes liberties with what notes he found for those history books (of which "Lost Tales" was the first which I thought was a gyp the day it came out in 1983.) and Ungoliant in particular is his achilles heel. When he does talk about the background of the character we're still on page one back in Shelob's lair as to what and why leaving you the reader to create you're own creation story based on the Appendix. It shouldn't have to be for an immensely huge element that has all the attention on her. I think the addition of her into the Tree tale as well as the splitting of Manwe and Eru Illuvatar into two separate beings from an easily confusing sentence about the Elder King in the appendix are the major deviations that has him covering his tracks in these histories. That just reads like fan fiction to me. Its not that I don't trust him... but I still don't trust him. At times over the years, it seems Christopher Tolkien's legitimately concerned of how his father's work is perceived ( like his recent protest over THE HOBBIT films until he quietly went away for an undisclosed reason... most likely a yacht the size of Rhode Island... ) but he shouldn't really have to because it ultimately isn't his to create. P.S.: I still can't bring myself to watch THE HOBBIT PART TWO.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 1, 2014 16:14:48 GMT -5
I got a juicy tidbit from THE LETTERS OF TOLKIEN April 1954 (published 1981):
Her name here is literally "Proto-Shelob" instead of the "dark spider" that one usually sees in association with "offical translations"! I also like the fact that he mentions she is not normally a spider and there exists a potential for her to be considered an "evil goddess" with other names on another avenue from Sauron elsewhere on Middle Earth.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 2, 2014 15:46:56 GMT -5
I'm getting into full swing by making an equivalent Greyhawk map for the Fourth Age Middle Earth then I'm going to round it out with new Fourth Age monsters.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 2, 2014 22:53:53 GMT -5
Here is the preview. I don't want to show the whole thing until its finished: Its Greyhawk scaled hexes 30 miles, You can see my addition of the "New Forest" area but I'm going to alter more areas and the new content will explain them in tidbits to give plenty of room.
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 3, 2014 8:08:46 GMT -5
I like the map. What is that: the forest of Dunland?
THE LETTERS OF JRR TOLKIEN is a treasure trove. When I first saw it, I thought they must be getting fairly desperate for something to publish, and what will be next? THE GROCERY LISTS OF JRR TOLKIEN? But it really does have a lot of insights you can't find anywhere else. In the same letter you cite, Tom Bombadil is mentioned: "... even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)... Tom Bombadil is not an important person -- to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a 'comment.' I mean, I do not really write like that: he is just an invention (who first appeared in the Oxford Magazine about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function. I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were taken a 'vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war. But the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron" (pp. 174-9).
In another letter, JRRT clarifies what he meant by the Elder King: "Manwë (Blessed Being) was Lord of the Valar, and therefore the high or Elder King of Arda" (letter 211, p. 283).
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 3, 2014 17:45:08 GMT -5
Yes, I saw "Manwe" character as a name for the "Elder King" reading through these letters.
I noticed Tolkien's trend of being embarrassed to have relayed certain European-isms that contradict his religious views to which he has to explain. I think this "Letters" book is loaded with little episodes that create a need for finding god's place.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 12, 2014 14:13:39 GMT -5
Still honing the Fourth Age Greyhawk style map. I've done political shifts and renaming in my own campaign so many times so its kind of easy. However, some of the what ifs have to have the same feeling in this case so that is the important part. No redos. Mordor is going to be as dead as Goblin Town and Lonely Mountain is to the trilogy. That is there might still be something left in Minas Morgul's deepest subterranean parts but its irrelevant to what popped up somewhere else.
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Post by Scott on Aug 12, 2014 15:04:32 GMT -5
There are certainly other maiar out there that could take any shape/form you wanted. Based on the info surrounding the Necromancer it's implied that men can learn powerful dark magic. There are still dragons in the north, but nothing Smaug-like, more like 1E dragons.
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Post by GRWelsh on Sept 23, 2014 11:31:09 GMT -5
Sauron is alive... to the sound of music!
Sorry, but every time I glance at this thread title, that pops into my mind. Maybe it is the association with the MUSIC OF THE AINUR.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 22, 2014 16:14:37 GMT -5
I got an e-mail about the EXTENDED DESOLATION OF SMAUG bluray. Then I started thinking how its always been this way with Tolkien stuff they always want to sell you something else. If I were running Tolkien Incorporated this would be the first installment:
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 23, 2014 13:17:26 GMT -5
I pre-ordered the Extended Desolation of Smaug Blu-Ray. I didn't see the theatrical release. I was going to not buy it, but I just can't help myself.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 23, 2014 13:32:17 GMT -5
From RETURN OF THE KING: Its the Professor himself! He's one of THEM!
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 23, 2014 13:42:46 GMT -5
Maybe that's a reference to the film studio.
Yes, I was feeling very Gollum/Smeagol about it: "I really don't even like this crap, but... must order it, yes, Precious, must have the Blu-Ray!"
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