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Post by geneweigel on Oct 24, 2013 16:47:33 GMT -5
Alright, I just finished THE SHINING about three hours ago. All these years... and it was almost 300 pages of history of ghosts only to have it be a psionic manta ray with no explanation whatsoever??? KING!!!!
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 24, 2013 18:43:28 GMT -5
From THE SHINING pp. 437-8: Wendy had pressed her face against Hallorann's back to cut out the wind, and Danny had likewise pressed his face against his mother's back, and so it was only Hallorann who saw the final thing, and he never spoke of it. From the window of the Presidential Suite he thought he saw a huge dark shape issue, blotting out the snowfield behind it. For a moment it assumed the shape of a huge, obscene manta, and then the wind seemed to catch it, to tear it and shred it like old dark paper. It fragmented, was caught in a whirling eddy of smoke, and a moment later it was gone as if it had never been. But in those few seconds as it whirled blackly, dancing like negative motes of light, he remembered something from his childhood… fifty years ago, or more. He and his brother had come upon a huge nest of ground wasps just north of their farm. It had been tucked into a hollow between the earth and an old lightning-blasted tree. His brother had had a big old niggerchaser in the band of his hat, saved all the way from the Fourth of July. He had lighted it and tossed it at the nest. It had exploded with a loud bang, and an angry, rising hum-almost a low shriek-had risen from the blasted nest. They had run away as if demons had been at their beels. In a way, Hallorann supposed that demons had been. And looking back over his shoulder, as he was now, he had on that day seen a large dark cloud of hornets rising in the hot air, swirling together, breaking apart, looking for whatever enemy had done this to their home so that they-the single group intelligence-could sting it to death.
Then the thing in the sky was gone and it might only have been smoke or a great flapping swatch of wallpaper after all, and there was only the Overlook, a flaming pyre in the roaring throat of the night. I thought that explained it well enough. After enough "bad deaths" happened at the Overlook, the ghosts became a sort of collective entity -- a stronger than normal haunting. Danny's "shining" was the key that activated them. However -- Did you notice that it was AFTER seeing the 'obscene manta' dispersed by the wind, that something tried to possess Hallorann in the equipment shed? I thought that was a bit inconsistent. But I guess King just wanted to get in one final scare.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 24, 2013 19:15:53 GMT -5
Yeah, but all those pseudo-facts to have it be a coincidence without any initial catalyst was kind of painful.
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 24, 2013 19:55:56 GMT -5
The only catalyst I could find was hinted at on p. 77: “It's sort of a pity,” Hallorann said, leading them back toward the wide swinging doors that gave on the Overlook dining room. “There was money in that family, long ago. It was Watson's granddad or great-granddad-I can't remember which-that built this place.”
“So I was told,” Jack said.
“What happened?” Wendy asked.
“Well, they couldn't make it go,” Hallorann said. “Watson will tell you the whole story-twice a day, if you let him. The old man got a bee in his bonnet about the place. He let it drag him down, I guess. He had two boys and one of them was killed in a riding accident on the grounds while the hotel was still abuilding. That would have been 1908 or '09. The old man's wife died of the flu, and then it was just the old man and his youngest son. They ended up getting took back on as caretakers in the same hotel the old man had built.” Kubrick added in the detail that the Overlook was built on an old Indian burial ground. Maybe he felt the same way you did, that it all needed more of a central catalyst or explanation.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 24, 2013 20:52:54 GMT -5
There was a lot of allusions. Wikipedia lists these: The Shining was also heavily influenced by Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House,[9] Edgar Allan Poe's The Masque of the Red Death and The Fall of the House of Usher,[7] and Robert Marasco's Burnt Offerings.[4] The story has been often compared to Guy de Maupassant's story "The Inn".[10] But what really struck me was an overwhelming sense of Lewis Carroll's Alice that goes beyond the scene with direct allusions with Danny entering the forbidden room: The drinking buddy led Jack to the Overlook and turned out to be lead stockholder ( White rabbit leads Alice to Wonderland (orig: Under ground) turns out to be the herald of the Queen of Hearts). The cat mask in the elevator ( Cheshire cat making its body disappear). Jack's fixation on drink and popping Excedrin ( the Drink Me bottle and Eat Me cake), olives looking like severed heads and the memory of Bluebeard's wives' heads ( off with their heads [this is also said directly]), the phone calls Jack makes to the manager making him a large threat in response to being reduced to nothing at the start then the call to the revealed major stockholder putting him back to his normal state ( Alice shrinking and growing throughout), the kid that got Jack fired stuttered ( Lewis Carroll stuttered). I'm sure theres more because this idea grew as I was reading it.
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 25, 2013 8:41:30 GMT -5
I got some Alice in Wonderland references, but not as many as you did. I wasn't sure how far to read into that one.
There was the hedge rabbit, and Danny literally going down into a hole, as well.
Wasn't there a croquet game in Alice?
There was that stuff about Danny going into the mirror, also.
BTW, on p. 161 of DOCTOR SLEEP. Still good so far!
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Post by Scott on Oct 25, 2013 8:58:21 GMT -5
Yeah, they used flamingos as croquet mallets, I think.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 25, 2013 10:28:45 GMT -5
Yeah, he claims that "Roque" is the original version of croquet but its actually the other way around. Definitely an example of this weird New England pride that I had encountered when going to high school. Talk about "Mass minds". Pun intended!
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 25, 2013 14:14:41 GMT -5
I know what you mean about New England snootiness, and there is some oddball stuff that comes out of New England. But there is also something about them I like. It just isn't the Patriots. I had a philosophy professor who had a strong accent and I was certain it was from some corner of England, but I later found out he was born and bred in New England. Very quirky. So there must be area of New England where they still talk like they just got off the Mayflower, I guess.
They sure don't seem to like New Yorkers!
New England might have a reputation for ghosts, but you have them beat with the Headless Horseman!
And you stole their Bambino.
Back to DOCTOR SLEEP: My latest impression is that I'm reading a combination of themes from some of King's earliest novels, as if he recently revisited them before starting on DOCTOR SLEEP. I'm thinking of FIRE-STARTER and SALEM'S LOT and CARRIE, all in addition to THE SHINING. I don't want to say more right now and give anything away, but Jerusalem's Lot did get a mention.
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Post by Scott on Oct 25, 2013 15:21:12 GMT -5
Let me know if you catch the Silenece of the Lambs reference in there.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 25, 2013 16:12:13 GMT -5
I know what you mean about New England snootiness, and there is some oddball stuff that comes out of New England. But there is also something about them I like. It just isn't the Patriots. I had a philosophy professor who had a strong accent and I was certain it was from some corner of England, but I later found out he was born and bred in New England. Very quirky. So there must be area of New England where they still talk like they just got off the Mayflower, I guess. I have a theory that English speakers stopped speaking in the same style hundreds of years ago and some of those New Englanders still have it. For example, I noted a busdriver and a history teacher from different areas who said "two" like "tow" with a roaming "W" in there and it sounded like some olde English extra letter doubling in there. They sure don't seem to like New Yorkers! They used to say "SAY ORANGE" but I was like "WHAT?" because I didn't know what they were saying was "ORANGE". New England might have a reputation for ghosts, but you have them beat with the Headless Horseman! Yeah, but on a weird note its up near Chatham, NY closer to Massachusetts where the real legend is from and all the characters were based on people from there which I think was then part of Kinderhook. Irving shifted it to his local precincts. I actually tried to see if I could spot it a few times driving through unsuccessfully of course! Damn it! And you stole their Bambino. They can keep him! I like the SCTV skit with the kid making all the demands though!
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 27, 2013 10:34:47 GMT -5
Let me know if you catch the Silenece of the Lambs reference in there. Frederika Bimmel = Fredrica Bimmel, Buffalo Bill's first victim. I wonder if I would have got it, if you hadn't mentioned before I came across it? That one would have been easy to miss if I hadn't been tuned into to it. "We begin by coveting what we see every day." That was Lecter's hint to Starling to lead her to finding out where Buffalo Bill was.
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 28, 2013 7:54:57 GMT -5
On p. 389 of DOCTOR SLEEP. I thought I'd finish it yesterday, but I ended up watching that travesty of a game and then eating some steaks with some Guinness, so that took care of my evening.
I am seeing parallels to Bram Stoker's DRACULA in DOCTOR SLEEP, similar to the way Gene saw allusions to ALICE IN WONDERLAND in THE SHINING. But that's all I'll say for now since I don't want to spoil anything.
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 30, 2013 12:48:17 GMT -5
I finished DOCTOR SLEEP. I enjoyed it, but not as much as THE SHINING. I think the latter had a better story and was more tightly focused. Once again, as with most King novels, I liked the beginning and middle much better than the end. The best parts of DOCTOR SLEEP were the character development and the writing itself. King's ability to describe small details and craft beautiful sentences is as good as ever, maybe better than ever. Overall, I'd say it was a worthy sequel. I won't say more until Gene is finished with it.
"Great party, isn't it?"
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 22, 2013 8:06:19 GMT -5
Overall, I'd say it was a worthy sequel. I won't say more until Gene is finished with it. Finished last night at midnight. I think it was paced the same but I had more free time reading THE SHINING for some reason. Overall, I got the feeling that he was trying to: A) Cash in on THE SHINING film's notoriety, of course B) Voice his political/social concerns (running for office of some kind?) C) Make a film vehicle for Rob and Sheri Moon Zombie <<<SPOILER ALERT >>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I think this was headed one way and it took a turn to end less horrifically.
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 23, 2013 0:35:48 GMT -5
That last part, I definitely agree with. The monsters of this book -- the Steamheads -- proved to not be that difficult to defeat, mainly due to some metaphysical stuff I didn't quite understand, such as:
- Why did the "steam" of Concetta destroy all the steamheads who were in that lodge? That seemed a bit too convenient and easy to me.
- Dan releasing the ghost of Horace Derwent also didn't make sense to me -- why release an unknown quantity -- a crazy, evil ghost -- into an already tense situation? That just seemed stupid, even though it ended up working out for the good guys, it just seemed like luck.
What would have made more sense to me would have been the ghost of Jack Torrance locking that lady in the shed, at the end -- a final sort of redemption for the character.
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 23, 2013 0:41:44 GMT -5
I've read a lot of reviews where readers felt the villains in this book were too easy to defeat. I didn't really mind that, however, because they seemed like allegories for child molesters and/or junkies who will do anything for their drug.
What makes them a threat is their anonymity and victims not seeing them coming.
But once they are known about, they aren't nearly as much of a threat -- and even end up seeming cowardly and weak.
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 23, 2013 2:00:34 GMT -5
<<<SPOILER>>> . . . . .
. . . .
. .
With all the good possession going on I thought it would end with either:
A) Bad possession: Where the villainess takes over the girl and no one is aware. Ala the ending of THE DEVIL'S RAIN with Ernest Borgnine.
B) Recovery possesion: Where the girl's body is destroyed but her psyche resides in the villainess' shell. Ala the ending of SCANNERS sort of.
I didn't expect the non-casualty ending.
Why I got the "cash-in" feeling? The Jack Torrance character part makes it seem like Jack Nicholson is doing a typical Hollywood cameo or its small enough they don't even have to feature him.
The political thing I said was all the snippets sounded a lot like this guy that I know who rambles on and on about politics and uses the term "Walmart" as a punchline. I think King said Walmart at least 5 times.
And the Sherri Moon Zombie thing that I said was that whole statuesque woman with a cocked tophat thing going on there and the True Knot seems like THE DEVIL'S REJECTS. I'm not a fan of any of that Rob Zombie stuff by the way.
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