|
Post by Scott on Oct 9, 2012 13:39:14 GMT -5
Rao or St. Cuthbert? That was the big debate, once upon a time. But maybe it's both, sort of. I recently, like a minute ago, remembered a conversation me and EGG once had about St. Cuthbert. It may have been one of Gary's off the cuff moments, but he made some comments on St. Cuthbert, on what he was like as a mortal cleric, and the god he worshipped, Rao. It makes sense. Cuthbert's followers are strong in the area, on the Veluna/Furyondy border area. It provides a possible solution to the discrepancy. Like Riggby is a follower of Boccob with a lesser devotion to Zagyg, Hazen may venerate Rao, with an additional devotion to St. Cuthbert. I know Gary has made pretty firm statements on both. Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Oct 9, 2012 13:44:50 GMT -5
Gene, I know you were pretty strongly in the Cuthbert camp, and the original info does seem to point that way, but I thnk that Rao is a better fit as the primary. I like this solution.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Oct 9, 2012 17:52:31 GMT -5
I'm trying to figure out why anyone considered Rao at all in the first place. That was one of those Car Sargent ideas if I recall correctly.
Heres something else to consider. When I fitted the high level clerics of Greyhawk city to a council, Gary distinctly separated Rao to the LG and Cuthbert to the LN as if they had nothing to do with one another.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Oct 9, 2012 18:04:06 GMT -5
In addition, he also said in a phone conversation regarding Rao:
A) That there were more gods that were not listed but will never be brought to the light of day but would have been. This was specifically regarding "saints' patron deities".
B) Its not Indian "Rao" or from Superman "rao" reiterating the e-mail I sent him earlier and seguing over to comic books.
C) I was pronouncing it as "RAY-O" and he said "RO".
D) Rao is connected to Saint Trowbane.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Oct 9, 2012 18:06:00 GMT -5
Cuthbert is LG with LN tendencies. His clerics can be LG or LN. I think that was probably more of an opinion on that cleric. Maybe he was a Star? Personally, I just never felt the Cuthbert makes a good fit for the main god of a country like Veluna; he's a rustic lesser god. IMO, a greater LG god is a better fit for a powerful "Archclericy" like Veluna. I don't remember where the idea came from initially, but Gary did support it, on the days he wasn't saying it should be St. Cuthbert.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Oct 9, 2012 21:10:29 GMT -5
You know the article with the subcult of Ehlonna? Thats the way he discoursed on clerics and religion as if it was manifold and convoluted in myriad ways. Remember my discussion with him Nerull/Infestix where he said (paraphrasing all the relevant parts) "who can say if an avatar can become more powerful than its principal but for the most part they are the same. Infestix would be mentioned in the Temple of Nerull parenthically"? Plus also recall that he insisted lesser gods are the same entities alternate world to alternate world while a demigod like Iuz is not and would variable from plane to plane perhaps not even exist in some. So in all the infinite Greyhawk they have a finite amount of gods some being more to the fore than others per world. taking this concept further and applying it to his article with HP for followers it would assume they have different HP per world but are the same concept/look but they could have other avatars known in the same world as well.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Oct 9, 2012 21:26:41 GMT -5
It's hard enough getting things straight on one plane.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Oct 9, 2012 21:52:41 GMT -5
In the plane where the GREYHAWK ADVENTURES/GORD THE ROGUE novels take place Nerull and Infestix exist side by side so he was kind of saying that for each cult you have different stories but essentially the same guy at the end with different forms. He even made a holy trinity analogy (apologizing ahead of time) to present an easy to comprehend concept.
The one thing that shows this is embedded in WOG is that Cyndor is a known greater god and a known lesser god.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Oct 10, 2012 10:29:46 GMT -5
Any thoughts on when Cuthbert was an active mortal cleric?
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Oct 10, 2012 10:29:54 GMT -5
Basically the second edition of D&D used what Gary had laying around but didn't comprehend it with "avatars". Lorraine version: Greater 10 avatars (1 day regenerate another); Intermediate 5 avatars (1 week regenerate); Lesser 2 avatars(1 month regenerate); Demigods 1 avatar (1 year regenerate).
Avatars power depends on what portion the god wishes to share.
Gygax version: Greater: (1-4 weeks regenerate principal) can make unknown number of avatars. Infinite? Lesser: (2-8 weeks regenerate principal) can make unknown number of avatars. Infinite? Demigods: do not make avatars.
Avatars power depends on unique creation of persona and then volume of worshippers. So in this view, Rao technically could have been another "demigod" imprisoned by Zagyg in another part of the dungeon complex or even Cuthbert himself.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Oct 10, 2012 10:39:57 GMT -5
Any thoughts on when Cuthbert was an active mortal cleric? I think I might have an answer but it'll take a while to go through my notes.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Oct 10, 2012 12:56:47 GMT -5
He must be part of a post-Zagyg, post-Castle, post-New city, 375 post-"Might of Iuz" 437 Roughly before Greyhawk becomes a Free City in 498 because of the route of the pilgrimage in GORD THE ROGUE: COME ENDLESS DARKNESS being part of the "New City" and the "Might of Iuz Iuz" seems to be associated with his character versus "fearbabe Iuz" who seems a thing of long ago. Plus his title of "Saint" screams recent over ancient makes these assumptions likely. Heres another thing I bumped into regarding Cuthbert over Rao: Because of the alliance and close ties with Veluna, whose policies the Gentry of Dyvers see as restrictive, the city declared its independence in 526 CY, King Thrommel II allowing this act to pass unchallenged'. Sounds like Veluna is more Cuthbert than anything and the quote: The Archclericy of Veluna has long been a shining example of the better side of humankind in the Fla-: naess. Since the state became independent, it has treated fairly and justly with its neighbors and championed the cause of righteousness everyhere. After the unfortunate Short War (see Bissel, Keoland), Veluna returned to normal affairs and only engaged in formal military action again when the Horde of Elemental Evil manifested itself. See the better part of humanity being associated with "peace" was probably wishful thinking on the part of the later "designers". The heraldry of Veluna features crusader crescents and the Starburst of "The Order of the Stars" so the the god of peace, reason and serenity doesn't seem to be associated in wide manner.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Oct 10, 2012 13:08:19 GMT -5
But under the Cuthbert entry in the guide, where the placses where his following is strong, Veluna is not even listed.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Oct 10, 2012 13:28:51 GMT -5
But under the Cuthbert entry in the guide, where the placses where his following is strong, Veluna is not even listed. But that is word for word from the Dragon magazine article which says right after "VERBOBONC" to see village of Hommlet adventure which namedrops Hazen having direct inluence on the clerics and it being built for Hazen.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Oct 10, 2012 14:20:15 GMT -5
Call is a case of aesthetics-based heresy then, since St. Cuthbert just doesn’t make a good fit, in my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Oct 10, 2012 15:10:48 GMT -5
But that is word for word from the Dragon magazine article which says right after "VERBOBONC" to see village of Hommlet adventure which namedrops Hazen having direct inluence on the clerics and it being built for Hazen. I posted that quickly but Hazen's name is never said in T1 its assumed to be Hazen but it is definitely the Archcleric of Veluna at the time who is a cleric of Saint Cuthbert and the ruler of Veluna. So here is the relevant quotes... CHURCH OF ST. CUTHBERT: This newty built edifice was raised by the Viscount in honor of the old rendered to him by the Archcleric ofVeluna In the war against the Temple of Elemental Evil. and The Canon Terjon (6th level cleric - S 11 , I 10, W 16, D 12, C 16, Ch 8-chain mail, shield +1, mace; 41 hit points; Invisibility and mammal control rings; typical spells noted hereafter recently become the chief cleric of the church, taking over from the Canoness Y'dey who left unexpectedly and has not returned. The villagers say that Terjon is not particularly friendly and his sternness is a cause of some speculation. Actually, this cleric Is not a bad fellow at all, but he Is rather dlspleased at being called to care for the church while Y'dey Is on a quest,for Terjon is desirous of being off adventuring hlmself, and ONLY the request of the Archcleric of Veluna keeps him on station. Detailed Information of the 6th level cleric, Y'dey, is given in ADVANCED DUNGEONS DRAGONS MODULE T2, THE TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL And T1-4 say reiterates more on Y'Dey being the Archcleric subordinate: A small coop is in the rear of the shop. It holds 6 homing pigeons, which Y'dey uses for communicating with the Archcleric of Veluna. This same information is sent to Furyondy (and then to Veluna and Verbobonc) by way of Otis' regular reports; the pigeons are a back-up system.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Oct 10, 2012 16:25:53 GMT -5
I know, and there's no doubt that St. Cuthbert was the choice when T1 was being written, but T1 pre-dates the WoG setting. Looking at all the material available, I feel Rao is the better choice.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Oct 10, 2012 17:23:46 GMT -5
Well its true you can have anything you want that horrid Greyhawky leftovers campaign that I ran for 3rd edition still makes me cringe. Its that "quick-fix" before the game type thinking that made me do that. What'd I have Hazen dead in that one? I can't even remember. The only thing that made me shitcan that campaign was the guy who showed up with a T1-4 sticking out of the side of his bag and was leading everyone towards Hommlet. In the midst of a battle in GORD THE ROGUE: "Hoddo Ekbir!"
"Veluna and Struthburt!"
"Tusmani Akbur! Heh! Here is an Iuz quote on Veluna from GREYHAWK ADVENTURES: ARTIFACT OF EVIL: "Eclavdra and her drow? She will aid in the subterfuge; all the better unknowing! Better still, she will help to hoodwink the one who proudly names Me Son. Drow companies will bedevil the marches to the far west, and Veluna will turn that way in fear and consternation, torn between the hordes of the Scarlet Brotherhood in the Kron Hills and the threat of what might transpire in Bissel. Long is My memory, all-pervading My tentacles of action. Is Iuz saying Veluna problems go way back before TOEE?
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Oct 10, 2012 17:50:39 GMT -5
This is from Tenser's WG6 ISLE OF THE APE speech regarding the absence of Rao in Greyhawk's affairs: Amidst the gems and magicks we bore out from the depths of Castle Greyhawk's dungeon. was a small mace. a mere toy. it seemed, albeit one fashioned of iron and silver and encrusted with carven gemstones. No geegaw. that. It is a most charmed imple· ment of cIerical power, the Crook of Rao. If that One is most peaceful and serene. none· theless his word is not to be lightly passed off. Long and long Rao has refrained from any meddling here. but he left with us a token of his power. Devils and demons of the Lower Planes shudder at the mere mention of the object. Daemonkind flee in terror at sight of it. and we need it now!
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Oct 10, 2012 19:56:01 GMT -5
Iuz was one of the high points of the novels.
|
|