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Post by geneweigel on Aug 8, 2017 17:12:55 GMT -5
I was always annoyed by the way the Tom Moldvay modules (this, B3, and X2) all had circumstances to prevent the party from being able to go home between expeditions (the sandstorm here, the mysterious red glow in B3, the mist in X2) which seems contrary to how D&D - especially low-level D&D - is supposed to work. Maybe in non-Advanced D&D it's easier to gloss over (characters don't require training to level-up, magic-user spell books aren't necessarily as bulky as they are in AD&D and can perhaps be assumed to be carried along, etc.), but you've still got issues like what to do when a new PC join the party (or someone doesn't show up to a game) - just assume they find other wanderers in the dungeon? There's also the problem of what if the players get bored by the adventure before they get to the end and want to go somewhere else. I never liked it (and didn't like it any better when Tracy Hickman started doing it in AD&D modules). I think those adventures don't work with the lone players converging types (all ranger, all monk, etc.) you have to have characters who are wealthy to some degree.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 8, 2017 17:48:22 GMT -5
The cartoon had me riveted and I kept watching. I was 15 to 17 at that time so it wasn't like it sucked as bad as they make it out looking back. I think because (like AD&D in general) it never continued I was a little let down that more wasn't explored.
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Post by Scott on Aug 9, 2017 12:35:44 GMT -5
The 'no town' problem is made worse by the lack of death's door/unconscious rules and the fact that clerics don't get to cast spells until 2nd level in Basic, so it's very likely you'll need replacement PCs early on. With that in mind I house ruled ability score and starting money rolls and gave max HPs to start out. But 0 is still dead. With B4 the dungeon level increases faster than the experience you earn can keep up. You need smart players that know how to hit and run or you'll likely hit a TPK somewhere on the 3rd tier of the pyramid.
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 11, 2017 12:01:12 GMT -5
I have a fondness for the Moldvay material, partly due to nostalgia since the 1981 basic set was the first D&D item I ever owned. Also, in retrospect, I think Moldvay had a pretty good grasp of pre-Tolkien fantasy sources including the pulps. X1 (written with David Cook and Jean Wells) took the adventure outdoors and into the "Lost World" genre, X2 was an homage to Clark Ashton Smith and his Averoigne stories, B3 (co-authored with Jean Wells) was medieval fantasy romance, and B4 was obviously influenced by Robert E. Howard's "Red Nails." And there are some Lovecraftian references in there, such as with Arik of the Thousand Eyes (driving people insane) and Zargon (tentacles, cultists, etc.).
And to be fair, B3 does not force the player characters to remain in the dungeon. In the introduction it says, "Characters who try to explore the entire dungeon without stopping every so often and returning to town to heal wounds and regain spells will probably die." I always thought B3 had an appeal as an adventure for younger kids, since it has a story, instantly relateable elements (a curse on the land, a princess to rescue, a dragon-riding knight, and a mystery), multiple ways to resolve, and a rather epic "blockbuster movie" conclusion for a low level adventure. I also like that it plays with expectations a bit... is the knight in black armor who rides a white dragon a good guy or a villain? Some people may find B3 too kiddified or girl-friendly... But, that only means it might just be the perfect adventure to run for younger kids especially if some are girls.
But anyway, I have mixed feelings about the "you're trapped in the dungeon" theme... I think it can be useful to do, sometimes, to increase the tension and sense of isolation. But it is probably better off reserved for higher level parties, since they have more resources to draw upon before they get to that desperate feeling -- whereas 1st level characters always feel desperate!
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 11, 2017 13:34:15 GMT -5
The cartoon had me riveted and I kept watching. I was 15 to 17 at that time so it wasn't like it sucked as bad as they make it out looking back. I think because (like AD&D in general) it never continued I was a little let down that more wasn't explored. I had mixed feelings about the cartoon, because I often thought it was never D&D enough. The kids seemingly had all of their power from their magic items, but at the same time they seemed like advertisements for the 'new' character classes of barbarian, cavalier and thief-acrobat, and they were kind of annoying. But the show had enough direct-from-D&D elements in it to keep me watching, for sure. Seeing an animated Tiamat fighting a demon-wizard on a nightmare hooked me right away! And there were some stand-out episodes, now and then. The one with the skeletal warrior stood out for me. I still think the design for the "Dungeonmaster" character on the cartoon came from an old "Jasmine" strip by Darlene in THE DRAGON! I just need to find the linked images to prove it.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 11, 2017 15:04:32 GMT -5
Looking back Moldvay gets opinions on his work for things that he must have had no real creative control over. If Gary had no control over art then imagine what Tom Moldvay had to put up with? I think the credit for the 1981 Basic set is largely due to the Blumes and Gary in that order. Where Moldvay comes in its kind of off kilter with the home grown monsters that seem not universal enough.
I recall THE LOST CITY being popular because it wasn't grounded in anywhere and it was a lot less involved than PHARAOH's continuing story and convoluted maze. Another popular throw away module was TOMB OF THE L:IZARD KING but that had a country attached but for some reason it didn't seem too involved.
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Post by Scott on Aug 12, 2017 20:57:51 GMT -5
It's super nostalgic for me; after B2 it was the first D&D adventure I played. I still enjoy reading through it. It has a few flaws, but overall it reads well/plays well. I'm thinking about tying an expanded adventure to the rebirth of the Bright Desert.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 14, 2017 9:49:04 GMT -5
I had a chance to talk to my friend Taylor about the time we played LOST CITY and reiterated that he had played it before he played it with me but as a player. He wasn't sure what adventure I was referring to until I said "Zargon". Beyond that the story fell flat.
He mentioned "PHARAOH" not being good and he had played it the same year with someone else. Thinking back the Egyptian genre definitely appealed to me but the "I3/I4/I5" series as glitteringly premium the package was superficial at best. LOST CITY at least gave meat and potatoes weird background. The Hickman "I" jobs were literally Egypt porn.
I have a vague recollection of quite a few DMs doing a "fade in" of "how did we get here?" openings to game sessions and I think this was a case of it.
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Post by Scott on Aug 20, 2017 11:19:46 GMT -5
We had our first party death last night. Gavin, first time playing a magic-user, learned the hard way the perils of wading into melee with no armor and few hit points. Happens to everyone.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 20, 2017 11:48:44 GMT -5
Hopefully, he wrote it off and is ready to get back in the saddle.
When, in your D&D gaming career, did the profound dead character whining start? It had to be post-1983 for me. 1984? It was over a teen playing with their girlfriend who was settled in with their characters and he was trying to talk her into getting reckless and starting over with him. My brother's complaints were short protests but he was always ready to go with another. I think character dirges might have really took off when the overcompensations of the second wave DMs of the late 80's was in full spin when they gave away too much free overpowered crap then scorched the Earth.
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Post by Scott on Aug 20, 2017 13:48:54 GMT -5
He just rolls with it now. We ended the night rolling up a new magic-user. When he was 6 or 7 he would get upset, even more so when a henchman would bite it.
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Post by Scott on Aug 20, 2017 13:50:56 GMT -5
I recorded the session last night, just audio, but I only have one mic and some of the voices are kind of distant.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 20, 2017 16:41:54 GMT -5
Maybe you can put the audio on YouTube.
Ideally over a photo montage of photos, sheets and maps
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 21, 2017 10:08:34 GMT -5
Or you could start a podcast. "Swashbuckling tales from Brentwood," or something like that. "Catbeard the DM makes his kids cry."
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Post by Scott on Aug 21, 2017 15:20:28 GMT -5
You should come next time. I'll try not to make you cry.
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Post by Scott on Aug 21, 2017 15:21:52 GMT -5
I am thinking about doing a podcast, but I don't think it would work with the kids in the party.
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Post by Scott on Aug 24, 2017 6:32:52 GMT -5
One of the big problems with the adventure, the potential experience the party can earn doesn't keep up with the increase in dungeon level, is made worse due a large portion of the encounters on Tier 3 being potential allies, or at least neutral. A party won't be ready for the encounters on Tier 4 when they get there. Making things worse for this party, they somehow managed to avoid all the decent treasure hauls with the rooms they did explore last time. They lost their magic-user to boot.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 24, 2017 7:56:35 GMT -5
Yeah the isolation is a major issue but most of the modules were isolated in some regard. You know I recall doing something with a well stocked royal caravan that wouldn't send everyone in to explore the ruin in the distance but provided resources (healing, mercenaries, etc) to the adventurers by camping there until they are finished.
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Post by Scott on Aug 24, 2017 19:22:47 GMT -5
Another issue is language and writing. The module assumes that the language and writing of these ancient, isolated people is "Common". Alignment languages have come in handy, and I've made some of the NPCs fluent in some of the humanoid languages the PCs know.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 26, 2017 0:03:45 GMT -5
That is a conundrum. Its like what do you do? Make language mysterious and lose the verve of they're coming up and speaking directly or make a gateway of language confusion that wasn't included?
If you want to serve it as is, which is something my friend in the 80's insisted on, or go make it fit the campaign by making feel consistent?
I would vote to have it straightforward that they speak an understandable dialect and save the confusion for a more specific time with something completely made from scratch otherwise I'd worry that they couldn't judge the content as players (i.e. I played that one, etc.).
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