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Iuz
Jun 9, 2009 14:26:45 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jun 9, 2009 14:26:45 GMT -5
I suppose that’s the most likely scenario. In the history I wrote for Iggwilv, she started as a member of a witches’ coven and Graz’zt was their patron. Iggwilv eventually became the leader of the coven, and doing the nasty with the big guy was a duty or benefit of the position. At some point she decided that she no longer wanted to serve. She used her position to trick the demon, and captured him, for a while at least.
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Falconer
Enchanter
Knight Bachelor
AD&D, Middle-earth, Star Trek TOS
Posts: 330
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Iuz
Jun 9, 2009 14:49:08 GMT -5
Post by Falconer on Jun 9, 2009 14:49:08 GMT -5
That's a good story and makes sense. In any case, I don't see there being centuries between the two events.
In the novels, Gary wrote that Iggwilv WAS Louhi (not just Greyhawk's equivalent but the actual same being). That said, I prefer to keep the nature and extent of the crossover vague, and am more than happy if she has an Oerth origin story.
BTW, is Iggwilv an anagram of some sort? Igg=EGG (consider "Yggsburg"). I wonder what wilv/wlf/wilva signifies. Wife? Evil? Elf?
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Iuz
Sept 28, 2012 7:15:08 GMT -5
Post by Merkholz on Sept 28, 2012 7:15:08 GMT -5
I just remembered another reason to keep Iggwilv and Iuz on the younger end, Iggwilv took Tsojcanth's lair for her own, implying that the magic/power/lore found there would add to hers. If she was an older being she wouldn't gain as much from looting the lair of a junior (in a world where you could go from apprentice to Archmage in a few years). I prefer to see it as Iggwilv greedily looting Tsojcanth's lair to speed her own power along.
IIRC Tsojcanth was supposed to have been active around the Twin Cataclysms though I can't remember if it was only Gary's own musings on this of if there was anything written about it.
IMO the witch Iggwilv found the old caverns of Tsojcanth, took what she could find of its treasures and using them managed to bind Graz'zt. Iuz could have been the product of an earlier encounter where Graz'zt was in control but it should still be within the span of a normal mortal.
If I have to mash the timelines of Iuz and Iggwilv together I prefer to make Iuz a little younger rather than Iggwilv older. I can justify this by having a pompous Iuz have a completely warped view of his own importance and status. I do see the point of having Iuz be a lot more ancient but can't see it adding anything in itself to the campaign world.
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Iuz
Sept 28, 2012 7:48:03 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Sept 28, 2012 7:48:03 GMT -5
The Iggwilv timelines and the Iuz timelines aren't really compatible; the post-hoc combining of their histories creates problems. Yo have to pick one and adjust the other to fit. I prefer the "Iuz the Old", "He has rules the lands from the Howling Hills south of of the Lake of Whyestil for ages longer than any man can live", "Whether Iuz is a human who has become demon-like through the centuries..." option. Also, I usually rule that the gods with specific racial designations originated before the mingling caused by the migrations, and Iuz has a Flan origin. I guess a less convoluted version of Iggwilv's history would have the events detailed in the Lost Caverns background pushed back much further in time than 10 years ago and assume that she has been lost in the Abyss much longer.
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Iuz
Sept 28, 2012 10:50:01 GMT -5
Post by GRWelsh on Sept 28, 2012 10:50:01 GMT -5
I always feel like we're having a theological debate when we talk about this.
"Ah, you subscribe to the Ancient version but Monophysite theology is heresy, you know..." "The Trinitarian model makes no sense, how can something be both three and one?" "Ever see a picture of Cerberus? One dog, three heads. There you go."
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Iuz
Feb 4, 2016 16:09:38 GMT -5
Post by foster1941 on Feb 4, 2016 16:09:38 GMT -5
Having done some recent thinking on this consulting the various Gygax-TSR-era published sources but not looking at this thread before now, I independently came up with Iuz being 250ish years old and that he'd been ruling his kingdom for 100 years or so before his might grew in the late 400s (corresponding - coincidentally or otherwise, as noted above, with Iggwilv's downfall and Graz'zt's exile to the Abyss). I admit that that age isn't quite as intriguing as him being 1000+ years old, but still fits with the references to "ages longer than any man" and "centuries" and such. 250 years may not seem like so much in a world where elves and dwarfs and gnomes consistently live much longer than that, but it's still a really, really long time for a human - it'd be like if Napoleon were still alive today.
By extension that makes Iggwilv probably around 300 years old - around 50 when Iuz was born, around 190 when she took over Perrenland and around 200 at her downfall. It's questionable (to me, probably not to you all who've been thinking about this stuff much longer) whether Iggwilv had Graz'zt imprisoned that entire time or only at the end. Arguing in favor of the latter is that she presumably needed the same power (obtained from Tsojcanth) to imprison him that she used to take over Perrenland, but arguing in favor of the former is the idea that Graz'zt was already her prisoner when he fathered Iuz, which I like better than the other suggestion that they must have had a prior "romantic" relationship before the imprisonment happened. It also helps explain why Graz'zt isn't mentioned in early write-ups of Iuz - that if he's been effectively out of the picture for hundreds of years (imprisoned by Iggwilv for ~150 years, exiled in the Abyss for another 100) that he's been forgotten about by all but the most dedicated of demonologists.
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Iuz
Feb 4, 2016 17:05:42 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Feb 4, 2016 17:05:42 GMT -5
Outside of the setting info, the books imply that Iuz is really old, and Iggwilv is really, really old. The problem is that EGG really didn't care. If it sounded good in the moment, he didn't give any thought to consistency. The Iuz Iggwilv connection is a really cool aspect of the setting, but Gary didn't think it through when he made that connection.
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Iuz
Feb 4, 2016 19:59:21 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by geneweigel on Feb 4, 2016 19:59:21 GMT -5
Don't forget that according to Gary that each version of Oerth has another version of each demigod. {{{{ brains explode}}}}}} I bet its a time warp and the "the old" reference is bit of Gygaxian slyness.......
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Iuz
Feb 4, 2016 20:24:18 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Feb 4, 2016 20:24:18 GMT -5
That's Gary's half-assed 'I meant to do that'.
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Iuz
Feb 5, 2016 8:00:57 GMT -5
Post by Merkholz on Feb 5, 2016 8:00:57 GMT -5
There's obviously no way we'll get a satisfactory answer to this conundrum so we'll just have to do as we choose in our own campaigns. I do Think, however, that if Iuz and Cuthbert were mortal at the same time then the latter really rose in the deific ranks a lot faster than his rival. Zagyg also showed signs of a very rapid career in contrast to Iuz so it can't be "chaos" that is the hindrance.
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Iuz
Jan 20, 2018 17:52:08 GMT -5
Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 20, 2018 17:52:08 GMT -5
Do you all think we are supposed to think of Iuz and/or perhaps his TOEE leader, Supreme Commander Hedrack, as a type of "Red Skull" the comic book villain?
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 21, 2018 10:43:50 GMT -5
Yeah, I think something like that... Evil schemer, always up to no good, sneaky, an assassin, a deceiver, a bogeyman of fearbabe talk...
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Iuz
Jan 21, 2018 23:01:27 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jan 21, 2018 23:01:27 GMT -5
I'm sure this has come up before. Iuz is listed as a 16th level assassin, but 15th level is the top for assassins. I'm sure this isn't a typo since there are other cases in the Glossography where the gods have one level higher than a capped class can normally have. (Xan Yae is an 18th level monk, Olidammara is a 24th level bard). And then there's Boccob with his 26 intelligence. It's the kind of stuff that I can't imagine ever affecting game play, but it's like Gary throwing in these Spinal Tap bits ("These go to 11") just to mess with people.
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Iuz
Jan 25, 2018 9:12:43 GMT -5
Post by geneweigel on Jan 25, 2018 9:12:43 GMT -5
I'm sure this has come up before. Iuz is listed as a 16th level assassin, but 15th level is the top for assassins. I'm sure this isn't a typo since there are other cases in the Glossography where the gods have one level higher than a capped class can normally have. (Xan Yae is an 18th level monk, Olidammara is a 24th level bard). And then there's Boccob with his 26 intelligence. It's the kind of stuff that I can't imagine ever affecting game play, but it's like Gary throwing in these Spinal Tap bits ("These go to 11") just to mess with people. I checked all this but I got distracted. The gods in DEITIES & DEMIGODS (1980) fall short in comparison to WOG. There are some big levels but all fall within character maximums. DRAGON MAGAZINE#67 (NOV 1982) first DEITIES & DEMIGODS OF THE WORLD OF GREYHAWK Gary talks about DEITIES AND DEMIGODS spell-like powers not being adequate: DRAGON MAGAZINE#103 (NOV 1985) In this article, "THE FUTURE OF THE GAME", Gary discusses 2nd edition (the real one that never came to be) and infers that the gods of DEI&DEM (1980) are not uniform with something (assume Greyhawk) but doesn't say so directly but its obvious:
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