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Post by geneweigel on Dec 30, 2008 13:28:54 GMT -5
Somebody picks a pocket, gets caught, CLANg-ClaNG-CLAnG, if you beat em a bunch of ropes, weapons, thieves tools and money, how many times have you seen that in a game?
In reality though its the exact opposite, pickpockets never have a weapon...ever and you can beat the shit out of the entire gang with your shoe maybe get your wallet back but they never have weaponry or tools for any other thieving method and according to old street lore they never did. Its like some rule they collectively have. So why in a fantasy world do thieves always have to be "thieves" the character class? Shouldn't there be some method to give 0 level thieves some kind of domination of the "piking" niche? Why should the gentlemen thieves as represented by the class be masters of all forms?
Discuss!
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Post by Scott on Dec 30, 2008 14:21:18 GMT -5
I just think what was detailed was what would be relevant, but anything is possible. Gary never had a problem creating characters that had abilities, but weren’t classed. The hermit from the Tsojcanth wilderness comes to mind. If some unclassed rake can pickpock as a thief, then that’s all you need to know. Trying to formalize the unclassed NPCs went to an absurd degree in D20. You have 10th level commoners who are just bakers/blacksmiths/cobblers/etc. but with 40 HPs.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 30, 2008 14:41:11 GMT -5
That commoners with big HP thing still irks the crap out of me.
But how would it be done the right way? Just give them a random ability with no transitional growth?
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Post by Scott on Dec 30, 2008 15:16:57 GMT -5
Just pick a starting spot, and then advance it as it makes sense based on the passing of time and assumed activity.. But I'd probably not let it exceed the typical rate of the class.
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Post by Scott on Dec 30, 2008 15:19:00 GMT -5
Those 'high-level' commoners epitomize the lack of common sense in 3E. There were a few concepts I really liked, but they weren’t good enough to pull it off, and it fell completely flat.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 10, 2009 12:11:30 GMT -5
I never thought of the typical street urchin, beggar or prostitute-thief as a "thief" (the thief class), but only as a 0-level character with a few abilities -- with the thief class as described in the PH designed for well-rounded playability, an adventurer jack-of-all trades. But there should be plenty of folks in the world with some of those abilities... the urchin can pick pockets, a dwarf locksmith can pick locks, the sage who can read dead languages, the wood elf fighter can move silently and hide in shadows, etc.
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ghul
Enchanter
Posts: 272
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Post by ghul on Jan 10, 2009 12:22:40 GMT -5
The two thieves also had the relief of knowing that, with the satisfaction of a job well done, they were going straight home now, not to a wife, Aarth forbid!--or to parents and children, all gods offend!--but to Thieves'' House . . .
<snip>
. . . In addition there was the comforting knowledge that although each was armed only with his regulation silver-hilted thief's knife, a weapon seldom used except in rare intramural duels and brawls, in fact more a membership token than a weapon, they were nevertheless most strongly convoyed by three reliable and lethal bravos hired for the evening by the Slayers' Brotherhood . . . --Ill Met in Lankhmar
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 10, 2009 13:36:11 GMT -5
Yeah, there you go... the thief class isn't based on the real world so much as it is from S&S fiction, especially Leiber for the "thief as a profession" with the city guild, daggers, slings, etc.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2009 14:01:41 GMT -5
The original D&D implies thieves as angry mob form:
But in AD&D you'd be hard pressed to find them not in leveled class form.
Not to say there is no such thing as a well-rounded gentleman thief but shouldn't the average non-thief thief excel in the specific ability moreso than the adventurer? Perhaps picking pockets for a non-class thief "piker" is the same as a saving throw versus petrification giving the "thief class" the best reaction while still making it somehow superior to the class ability.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 10, 2009 14:45:59 GMT -5
Yeah, I would agree with that, because the thief class as described is based on a wide range of improvement. Those % chances of success are pretty pathetic, starting out. You start out as a bumbling, stone-fingered rube who trips over furniture and holds treasure maps upside down, but can gradually advance to master jack-of-all-trades professional.
An example for comparison is the elf or halfling who can move silently when not wearing metal armor. It doesn't say they have to roll to be silent, in their race description. Yet, does a halfling thief start as a "bumbler" having to roll his % to move silently with the thieves' tables? That always bugged me as an inconsistency, but also was an example of how others out in the world may have some thief-related abilities without having to be thieves (and could also be "better" than a thief, or at least a novice thief, at a certain ability).
How about an ANGRY BROOKLYN FANS house rule? That could be a rough one.
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Post by Scott on Jan 10, 2009 16:49:38 GMT -5
If you're not talking about the class, you just put together what's appropriate: Street Urchin: <average person stats>; SA: picks pockets as 6th level thief |
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2009 17:12:13 GMT -5
If you're not talking about the class, you just put together what's appropriate: Street Urchin: <average person stats>; SA: picks pockets as 6th level thief Thats pretty much the way I've been handling it just grabbing bits of the thief. This time I'm looking for an approach that says the thief characters are different by default and the average "thief" is something entirely different: a real pro that has nothing to do with the thief as a class. This saving throw approach seems doable but I'd have to see it in action first, you never know if its going to seem ridiculous until its action. |
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Post by Scott on Jan 11, 2009 6:41:24 GMT -5
In a class based system, it should be rules for the classes, and then everything else.
Thief is one of those words in D&D that many people have problems separating the class from the standard definition. Chaotic is another one. There was no thief class in OD&D. It was just a reference to the standard definition, somebody who steals something, whether it is by deception, force, or stealth. Just because a character isn’t a classed thief, doesn’t mean he isn’t a thief. He can steal. Depending on how he steals, he may have some abilities similar to a thief of a certain level. Rule ad hoc as the situations come up (how often does it?) or you’ll wind up with the formulaic silliness that was 3E/D20.
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Post by grodog on Jan 11, 2009 10:22:32 GMT -5
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 11, 2009 10:40:47 GMT -5
Rule ad hoc as the situations come up (how often does it?) or you’ll wind up with the formulaic silliness that was 3E/D20. Thats right on, somewhere somebody'll find a "lubed" approach to get around anything fast. |
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 11, 2009 10:41:44 GMT -5
What midwest fanzine is being mentioned there? |
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Post by Scott on Jan 11, 2009 10:59:22 GMT -5
I hate that 'every class is a thief' thing. There is a difference.
You could say, 'every class is a fighter' too about every character that engages with the enemy.
Jeff posted some very relevant quotes to the inspiration of the D&D thief class. There’s a definite archetype that the class can portray.
My problem with the class is not the class, but the players that usually play them. Most of them are clueless yuks that are oblivious to the pulp-inspired potential the class offers.
A good DM really should include encounters where each class can shine, and my experience is that the thief is often shortchanged in that area.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 11, 2009 11:10:22 GMT -5
A good DM really should include encounters where each class can shine, and my experience is that the thief is often shortchanged in that area. Behold! The pocket beast!  |
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Post by grodog on Jan 12, 2009 13:43:19 GMT -5
What midwest fanzine is being mentioned there? The Great Plains Games Players Newsletter. |
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 12, 2009 14:10:53 GMT -5
Well, there is a "Jim Lurvey" associated with that it seems. Jim Lurvey bioThis seems to be his e-mail: james.lurvey@sdstate.edu if I've followed the trail of breadcrumbs correctly and he is associated with a new variant called M.A.G.E. (Midwest Area Game Enthusiasts). Do you think he could solve the mystery as to who screwed D&D for al--...I MEAN...who created the thief class? |
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