GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 28, 2008 10:03:57 GMT -5
Here's an obscure question... I seem to remember Gary stating that the honorifics given for "Knight" and "Knight Bachelor" (a knight who does not belong to any particular order) given in the back of the GH Folio and Box Set were reversed, and have a notation to that effect. However, I cannot find the reference, and a consultation of terms show both being addressed merely as "Sir". Any ideas here?
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 28, 2008 10:17:57 GMT -5
Looking back, I think it was from when Gary did the Cavalier and (rightfully) put the "Knight Bachelor" as the level below "Knight"--so it would have been back around 1984.
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Post by Scott on Dec 28, 2008 10:54:58 GMT -5
Knights bachelor are the orderless knights at the bottom of the heap. Next would be the knights of the different orders. Prestige with this group would be subdivided on the basis of the orders the knights were a member of, and subdivided by the rank within the order. Baronets are higher than some of the orders, but not all. Bannerets made by the king would be on top of most except the most prestigious order, others would be mixed in with the orders just below baronets. They're all knights though, so the all have the same address, Sir, but the signatures are different.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 28, 2008 11:04:43 GMT -5
Yeah, I found that--but originally Gary had presented Knight Bachelor as 'Worthy Sir' and Knight as simply 'Sir'; then he reversed this at some point...
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Post by Scott on Dec 28, 2008 13:03:41 GMT -5
What would be good would be an order of precedence list for the inter-kingdom recognized orders of knighthood. so we could put together a complete list of knightly precedence.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 28, 2008 14:13:54 GMT -5
Hmmm....complicated, but I agree. Gary touched upon that idea but never detailed it. It's up to us now, I reckon!
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 29, 2008 0:30:35 GMT -5
Gary had notions that different states in Greyhawk had different precedences thats why it doesn't seem to make sense going from one table to the other in WOG 83 as they have info that contradicts each other.
I've got notes but I have to sort through them.
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Post by Scott on Dec 29, 2008 9:50:54 GMT -5
I'm at work, so no reference material here. What are the known and 'legitimate' knightly orders?
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 29, 2008 10:45:30 GMT -5
There are only three true Orders of Knighthod in Oerik: Knights of the Shield Knights of the Watch Order of the Hart (includes:) --Knights of Furyondy --Knights of Veluna --Knights of the High Forest However, other nations have "knights"--the Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom are mentioned(maybe the Demonic Knights of Doom are part of this group, but probably they are an "elite" unit...)
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Post by Scott on Dec 29, 2008 10:56:34 GMT -5
I think one important qualifier would be inter-kingdom recognition of the knighthood and order. I think the Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom would qualify as an order above a standard knighthood. The Demonic Knights of Doom I think would not qualify. I’d also consider them as an elite unit, but under the command of Xayene.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 29, 2008 11:47:05 GMT -5
Gary went all out in LA on precedence (the gazetteer) and its multi-layered with different approaches like the two lists in GH but on speed.
On the GH website project that i did with Gary one of things unfinished was insignia and command of the city's forces if they had a war. Here's the unfinished knights section to confound and bewilder some more:
Knights Knight Commander Knight Companion Knight Banneret Knight Bachelor Knight Esquire Arminger (armor bearing squire) Scutifer (shield bearing squire) Grand Serjeant Serjeant Man-at-Arms (PFC)
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Post by Scott on Dec 29, 2008 13:17:22 GMT -5
I think the “Knight” entry there is redundant. I knight bachelor is a ‘plain’ knight. The ranks of companion and commander only exist within a given order, and there would usually be at least one rank above them, typically the Knight Grand Cross. Your Doomsday title, “Grand Master and First and Principal Knight”, is an example taken from a real knightly order, so you might have something like that as well. Bannerets, and especially bannerets created by the sovereign, are pretty high ranking. Only the prestigious knights of the most prestigious orders should outrank them. A knight commander of the Order of the Garter, for example, would be one of the few to outrank a banneret created by the King.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 29, 2008 13:37:38 GMT -5
I wish that I asked him to elaborate but it might be that the "knight" in that list is a "non-hereditary knight" that he lists in the LA gazetteer above esquire. He was very adamant about not having absolute and non-conditional lists and was always about situational conditions.
I remember arguing for this treatment but he insisted that it would only be temporary if certain conditions arose (war, etc.) so that list is a one time treatment and easily negated.
As an aside, I maintained that Greyhawk city had to have a recognizable population of street urchins ("street boys") but he refused to include that information and it just confounded the hell out of me. From his view, it was an exceptional "one time instance" with Gord and that was it. It was like his game over realism GHC had to be maintained so you wouldn't have players killing gangs of kids, etc..
A lot of what he did was regarding as it applies to the game as opposed to historical comparison. Maybe it was player's roles that he was inferring with all this knight precedence being somewhat different....
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Post by Scott on Jan 28, 2009 22:10:36 GMT -5
There's also the Knights of the Malachite Throne mentioned in Saga of Old City.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 29, 2009 9:41:09 GMT -5
That just make wonder what that is referring to. Before the Knights of Doom or the Knights of Doom? The Great Kingdom is a morasse. Everytime I think about it, it comes out in layers that it was developed in: This kingdom has the most wretched army than any other kingdom's armies.
Here's the salute to that wretched realm.
Here's why its wretched, its my salute.
Now heres a different version for the hell of it.
We don't know what happened before but we'll make the best of it.
Wait all that really did happen but we won't elaborate too much as we don't want to seem like we're not in the know so its been rendered useless.Its like Blackmoor in Greyhawk, how much of that is Blackmoor and would it be like the GK's contradictions if Arneson sincerely wanted (what I see as) a fair creative continuance instead of the legal approach that he took? Were we better off that he didn't? Or should GH have just been kept to itself? With no Blackmoors, Great Kingdoms, Lendore or even potential Aquarias? SINK THE ENTIRE NORTHERN AND EASTERN SEABOARDS!!!!
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Post by Scott on Jan 29, 2009 10:00:22 GMT -5
I don't think it's connected to the DKoD. The DKoD served as commanders of the armies, not as units within the army, and ultimately their loyalty is with Xayene. I don't think Gary was considering any of that when he was writing the Gord stories.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 29, 2009 11:05:12 GMT -5
If you go with the recently evil Xaene story there is no way that he could have corrupted an entire organization overnight so they would be part of the resistance and "good". But you would have to flush the Gygax elements, like years and years of evil and the "demon-seeing throne".
Theres got to be a way to save all this without getting rid of one or the other. Perhaps alter the story just slightly by saying that unbeknownst to Xaene the overking had already become a puppet of good forces for some time who "cured him" (alignment change) letting a new era start. Enter the Xaene from another world and he begins his conspiracy to counter (what he saw) as a natural change of heart. Then the old corruption is on its way back as well in the form of the Knights of the Malachite throne who wish to restore their leader to his true evil identity and are against all conspirators: the "GoldenLeague/White League/Secret League of Pholtus/Dawnsbreak Clan" and "Xaene/Black Legion/Midnight Darkness Clan/Knights of Doom" as well. Where the names are taken from Xaene's world (i.e. the clans) say they're later "invaders" who joined the Xaene era created groups (i.e. the Leagues, the Black Legion and Knights of Doom) for and against him. Then you can have the Gygax version of an old evil order of knights with the later stuff going on.
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Post by Scott on Jan 29, 2009 11:41:38 GMT -5
In my opinion, one of the worst aspects of later day Greyhawk is that there was too much trying to save and not enough getting rid of stuff. There's the original intent/feel. Somebody misses it or decides to ignore it for some lame piece. Somebody else realizes the mistake and writes an even lamer piece trying to make it all work together somehow, etc. There's so much compounded lameness. I just skip the Ivid/Ovar is really good thing.
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Post by Scott on Jan 29, 2009 12:13:03 GMT -5
I'm generalizing. I don't want to lump Rob's stuff in with the ultra lame-o 2E+ stuff, but there's definitely an issue there, and rather than use the 2E+ method of coming up with some convoluted story to make it all fit, just choose one and stick with it. In this case, the Ivid is really good thing just doesn't fit within the greater context of the Great Kingdom and Greyhawk.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 29, 2009 12:19:43 GMT -5
I know. Blackmoor is the bigger hump though as it has nothing but what you could put into it from the FFC or DA!-4. But since its so isolated and small, its like a non-entity. GK is a pain in the ass.
Does any one have a pic of the IFW C&C map?
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