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Post by Scott on Dec 13, 2007 17:04:02 GMT -5
What about the possibility that the patron deity of the SB is a mortal, the founder of the Brotherhood, that has now ascended to the divine ranks? They're such a niche group, that a patron for their objectives may not have existed prior to the migrations.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 13, 2007 17:17:13 GMT -5
They definitely have lost evil gods though because of their general nature wasn't broadly covered at all. From the 1980 Folio's Brief History (replicated in 83): So they've got to have a shitload.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Dec 13, 2007 17:25:21 GMT -5
An interesting possibility... a Deity, nearly forgotten to those outside the Suel, and maybe an ascended Demigod figure as well??
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Post by Scott on Dec 13, 2007 17:31:58 GMT -5
Yeah, I recently read that while pondering this. There have to be a few big baddies waiting to be developed.
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Post by Scott on Dec 13, 2007 17:37:28 GMT -5
An interesting possibility... a Deity, nearly forgotten to those outside the Suel, and maybe an ascended Demigod figure as well?? Yes, old evil Suel gods for sure, but a demi-god, Scarlet Brotherhood patron as part of the pantheon would be cool.
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Dec 13, 2007 17:38:40 GMT -5
Maybe we could develop a legendary quasi-deity/demigod figure who encapsulates the Suel ideals and somehow/somewhere is still extent...?? This could be fun--a rival to the Vecna/Kas thing in its own way!
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 13, 2007 19:37:30 GMT -5
More of a Kelanen Prince of Swords thing than a Murlynd thing, right?
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ghul
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Post by ghul on Dec 13, 2007 19:50:08 GMT -5
Maybe they worship Sean K. Reynolds?
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ghul
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Post by ghul on Dec 13, 2007 19:54:53 GMT -5
(more seriously) What if the Supreme monk, the peerless one, is seen as a sort of quasi-deity unto himself, like a pharaoh or the Dali Lama?
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Post by GT on Dec 13, 2007 20:31:32 GMT -5
More of a Kelanen Prince of Swords thing than a Murlynd thing, right? Yea, verily...
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Dec 13, 2007 20:33:11 GMT -5
(more seriously) What if the Supreme monk, the peerless one, is seen as a sort of quasi-deity unto himself, like a pharaoh or the Dali Lama? Well, that's good, but taking those examples even they answer to a higher authority, as it were...
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 13, 2007 20:35:06 GMT -5
Speaking of low end gods....One of the things that I didn't like about the "World Owned By Lorraine Williams As Told By Carl Sargent" was Mayaheine who just seemed like Carl's (or his girlfriend's) paladin player character made into a god with zero pizzaz.
Another thing that I don't wan't to see in a low end god is anything that looks like "Johnny Lubed PC" who is just a series of eclectic items with long stories either. It's got to have that GH "ring" to it.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 14, 2007 1:47:30 GMT -5
I was thinking about this and after Gary's suggestion of a "details first" kind of approach perhaps we can look at that in regards to the deities of Suel evil.
What does their great temple look like?
How does this great god of lawful evil serve thieves, assassins, monks and racism?
What of making this disguised Greyhawk? Should we start by downplaying the characteristics that would identify this as a GH concept? For instance, we need a name that would make people assumethis is the Brotherhood but not directly. I suggest coming up with alternate names that could be used by people playing as straight GH as well.
Perhaps lets all imagine this as a flowing adventure concept in the SB just as a placeholder for now and try to fit necessary elements in there.
I can imagine the great god's temple being obsessed with purity in general tying in to the racism.
Here's a dry run:
Outside in an alcove is a hero-deity's statue with his flattened palms straight and back behind him, his arms triangular to his head as if he's about to take flight. Beneath his right foot is a stylized grotesque dwarf getting crushed. The great carved outer door covered in white bas-relief of the migration of the Suel the central theme of which has the central 4 timed symbol surrounded by those of true faith while the peripheral refugees fall into chasms. Entering the doors is a furnitureless centralized temple with four wings. Each dedicated to wicked aspects of the brotherhood and lesser corresponding gods. In the center is a massive fire pit with a stylized blackened iron wolf head in the center suspended over it. This acts as an iron maiden when the jaws are opened and closed on a sacrificial victim who are burned alive and "purified".
Pop in with more on this or a different take.
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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 14, 2007 16:34:12 GMT -5
Yeah, maybe they are referred to in alternate ways like: the Secret Fraternity, the Pure Kindred, Sons of Purity, Disciples of the Sign, Servants of Kro, and so on. They have a temple monastery that is "supposedly a fortress and walled town unto itself, guarded by soliders, humanoid legions which are being readied for future conquest, and monsters trained to serve the Brotherhood." The order was "founded long ago on the remote plateau south of the closed city of Kro Terlep." Kro Terlep is on, or very near, the coast -- does this imply that the temple monastery is someplace separate, perhaps on the plateau?
I keep thinking of the great temple as vaguely oriental. The idea of a closed city keeps making me think of China, or cloistered Xiao-Lin monks. If the analogy of the ancient Suel is that they were similar to Aryans/Persians, then maybe the monks of the Scarlet Brotherhood have tried to recover some of the architectural style of their ancestors -- but lacking resources, it would be on a smaller scale.
The evil god of this order might be their idea of a "perfect warrior" -- he's gone beyond needing weapons, although he has mastered them. He defeats his foes through stealth, surprise, and wits -- and most of all, patience. The Lord of Obedience embodies these virtues. The god is patron to thieves and assassins of the order, as well as the monks -- since the former use their abilities for the Great Cause. To lie, steal, slay and enslave anyone not of the kindred is not considered immoral.
Concealment and slow revelation is a theme: those entering the temple don't immediately realize the floor tiles make up a great mosaic of the god's face, and the part they are walking on is his wide open mouth -- it is only obvious from high above. Statues look like something else at first, until seen from a different angle. And so on.
Other deities are worshipped, too. Amon the Duke of Hell is wolf-headed, and may be part of the pantheon -- perhaps a deity for officers of the military. It's notable Wastri has a following in the nearby Vast Swamp. Perhaps the Sacred Polystery is an extremist offshoot of the SB religion: an example of bigotry going off in a different direction -- instead of the main goal being to reassert Suloise supremacy, in the long centuries some inbred heretics became focused more on simply hunting and killing demi-humans. The imagery in the Tomb of Horrors may also overlap with the SB religion: images of Tiamat, green-faced devils with gaping mouths, mosaics, bas-reliefs, etc.
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Post by GT on Dec 14, 2007 19:38:18 GMT -5
All cool ideas--especially Amon; but I think Vecna probably predates the whole Suel thing in a way similar to Ancient Egyptians predating Rome (or, Nazi Germany... ^__^) The Amon bit is quite good, though!
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 15, 2007 9:57:31 GMT -5
All cool ideas--especially Amon; but I think Vecna probably predates the whole Suel thing in a way similar to Ancient Egyptians predating Rome (or, Nazi Germany... ^__^) The Amon bit is quite good, though! Do you mean Acererak? Or are you just interjecting that?
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 15, 2007 10:12:28 GMT -5
I recall the Suel city in the novel having overpass like bridges all over the city but I'd have to find it again because I didn't do notes on SEA OF DEATH because I didn't have it. HEY! This isn't Living Greyhawk! Seriously, I thought on the racism some more. Did the Suel have it before or was it at this juncture? The barbarians don't have it but I'm sure they have plenty of the same evil gods as well. The same can be said for the monk thing a little (it may just be too lawful for the lawless savagery in the northern wilderness and always been around but they dropped it.). Maybe the hero-deity's primary areas can be breeding (and he's all about monks)? And leave more universal LE areas for the big ones with maybe one monkish type.
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Post by GT on Dec 15, 2007 10:14:56 GMT -5
Oooops! Mis-type! Yes, I actually figure Acererak to be more ancient than Vecna, as a matter of fact! ^__^
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 15, 2007 10:22:55 GMT -5
Thats what I thought you were saying. I was thinking that I was missing a lost supplement or something...
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Post by GT on Dec 15, 2007 10:26:36 GMT -5
Well, the hypothetical deity for the Scarlet Brotherhood would probably be of Demigod or Lesser level, or else it would probably be more extent in Oerik. It must be Lawful, and not Good. It must cover at least some ideals of discipline to be embraced by the Monks, perhaps stealth as well if thieves and assassins are to give it any service, and also somehow incorporate the "Suel ideal". Except for a few noted exceptions, the Suel are isolationist, racist and selfish. That encapsulates some of what I see as "given" as far as the deity goes...
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