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Post by Scott on Sept 10, 2008 12:44:47 GMT -5
I think they're pretty tame compared to some of the layouts I've heard about. Look at Rob's Bottle City as an example of a challanging layout for the mapper to handle. And remember Rob learned his trade from Gary.
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Rhuvein
Magician
Beware . . Mjolnir
Posts: 228
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Post by Rhuvein on Sept 10, 2008 14:10:59 GMT -5
I think they're pretty tame compared to some of the layouts I've heard about. Look at Rob's Bottle City as an example of a challanging layout for the mapper to handle. And remember Rob learned his trade from Gary. Heh, Bottle City. That looks to be an ass kicking level. Probably can't compare it to the Store Rooms. But your comment reminds me of something Ghul said a while back. I believe he said that at one point, he wanted in include a couple more levels with this release. And this was OK'ed by Gary and the Trolls. But when he sat down to look at it, he realized it was going to be way too much work and would further delay the project. So, I've been wondering about that - thinking on the assumption that the next lower levels will be way more complex in layout and of course would contain tougher traps, puzzles and monsters. And thus, a vast amount of material to prepare and get ready for publication. [Aside to Jeff - care to comment Sir Ghul??? ] Anyway, this release is a teaser, but a hell of a great one!! ;D
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 23, 2008 12:08:24 GMT -5
Well, I swallowed the whole thing this morning. Here's the breakdown: The main castle proper seems to be sort of a bonus area thats been reinvigorated for this version of Gary's dungeons. If it took Gord this long to get to the stairs in the basement of the main castle it wouldn't have been a short story! This definitely reeks of Gary although certain areas I can tell have been furthered (the pagoda details is one). Also the CAS refs seem out of synch, Gary's the only guy I ever knew who always dismisses CAS! Shit, I love him so it doesn't bother me! There is some sort of 3e creature in another section that threw me for a loop (allip). Who? Wha-..? Altogether this seems to have gone only slightly further so far than I would have wanted it to. The first level? I just hope all those upcoming levels don't get squished! When I first opened it, I saw Eneever Zig mentioned a few times and assumed he was encountered here but that kind of disappointed when he didn't! DAMMIT! I liked the Mars reference. Who's character was that? Ernie? That sounds like one of these tales that I've heard tell. All in all the Upper Shell is actually smaller than I imagined! ( The ruins north of a village campaign that I had two years ago was actually larger in size. However that had only one large dungeon level.) I see some gods like quasi-versions of Celestian and Tharizdun got their mitts in although tangentially. The chess/ghoul/ golem is based on a true story. As I was reading it, I was thinking "where did I read this encounter before?" its that 19th century (?) wonder machine that was a fraud. Anybody remember that? Another thing that threw me was the kiddy conditions with the time bomb note. What kind of slack DMing is that? Just kidding! Players will be bringing nieces and nephews as "mine canaries" if we see anymore of that! I assume that Zagyg is still within the confines of the dungeon and is paying some attention to the upper works as how does the magic brick know about the glutton's recent residence? Aha! The cursed (blessed?) minstrel made me laugh. He deserved imprisonment just for being a minstrel! Down to brass tacks, the overall layout is fine. I like the small print although I would have preferred a different font. The maps are all good but the outdoor maps seem awfully familiar. Hmmm....I HAVE A LAWSUIT!!! The art is functional although definitely not to taste for the subject matter. The "old guard" seem really "off" and thats not just an opinion they're REALLY OFF. I'll join the chorus and say no illustrations would be better. Although I love player handouts and illustrations. No illustrations in this case? Better product in this case. Overall, I wish this had all come out at once as the teasers (old: jeweled man, Zig, etc; new: "Cool Down Here" world, big gem, etc.) are just reiterating old expectations... Drat!
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Post by Scott on Sept 23, 2008 12:21:51 GMT -5
Good review, Gene.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 23, 2008 12:48:00 GMT -5
Jim Ward's foreword about cutting to the chase (Going down as fast as possible) kind of set the tone for the next (and final?) installment. They should have put that as an afterwards! Altogether, its definitely another excellent "KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS" for now. I just hope the players don't do a "Jim Ward" too fast!
I have tons of adventures of my own to playtest in the mean time though but once they know that that "CASTLE GARY" is now playable they might want to drop everything.
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Rhuvein
Magician
Beware . . Mjolnir
Posts: 228
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Post by Rhuvein on Sept 24, 2008 11:49:25 GMT -5
Haha, good review, Gene. Amazing that you could sit down and read it all at one sitting. I'm still working my way through the books. I'm through 4 and will now do a thorough read of The Store Rooms.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 24, 2008 12:04:22 GMT -5
I had a "carrot on a stick", it was nagging me that i was going to have to absorb it for what its worth (gameplay) then review it (as theres a lot of talk about it. Why should I get left out?)and I've got what seems like an entire industry worth of products to make (including our mysterious "workshop's project" here as well) so I just hammered it all out at once to get it over with and get back to work!
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 25, 2008 10:13:44 GMT -5
I forgot to mention something that I noticed. Abraham Merritt wasn't mentioned for the obvious "Moon Pool/Dweller" homage and CAS got two tips of the hat.
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ghul
Enchanter
Posts: 272
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Post by ghul on Sept 25, 2008 14:04:43 GMT -5
Hi Gene, Thanks for taking the time to read the adventure. I hope that despite your criticisms it's a fine enough adventure to try to run. I do appreciate your candid thoughts and insights, though. Maybe I can answer a few of them . . . Well, I swallowed the whole thing this morning. Here's the breakdown: The main castle proper seems to be sort of a bonus area thats been reinvigorated for this version of Gary's dungeons. If it took Gord this long to get to the stairs in the basement of the main castle it wouldn't have been a short story! Indeed! Surely Chert would've done something to draw the ire of denizens dwelling in the ruins! Actually, Gary put a lot of work into that pagoda. I added some elements and further elaborations and he then took it and expanded it further, so I can say with utmost certainty that he was very hands-on with that encounter area. Well, if he was opposed, he did not say anything to me, but I felt in the closing weeks it was appropriate to cite CAS where his influence was most flet. To answer your most recent post above, yes, the same should have been done for A. Merritt. That is an oversight on my part. Hey, Gene, do I have a volunteer for future editorial work? Why, it appears you are correct. We were looking to place a creepy ghost at that encounter, and that monster I dug out of the C&C Monster book and showed it to Gary. I didn't know it was originally a 3e monster, but it works well for the encounter. Gary probably didn't know, either. The first level is presented exactly as large as Gary wanted it to be. In previous incarnations, it has been smaller and larger than what you see in Castle Zagyg: The Upper Works. But the core of the dungeon, or, that which the Mouths of Madness ensconce, is directly based on Gary's original map with very few alterations. Eneever is a bit too tough for the PCs and he has larger fish to fry deeper below . . . When Gary directed me on the details of the Mars encounter, I was like a kid in a candy shop. Yes, that was Ernie's character. Creating your own external villages and ruins and whatever else and using them in conjunction with such material is 100% in the spirit of the game, and what Gary wanted. Make it your adventure! Indeed, I do remember it. Too Inspector Gadget for your tastes? Or Get Smart? Shut-up! The minstrel in the gallery is an amusing chap, glad you enjoyed that encounter. Well, to each his own, is my response to these observations. Thanks for taking the time to read it, Gene. Cheers, Jeff T.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 26, 2008 7:44:45 GMT -5
Sure, of course, I'm a Gary fan all the way.
Playabiltiy is definitely there for a while. At least enough to keep a game afloat with even a lax DM. Whats the projection for the next part? Next year some time or is it sooner?
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Rhuvein
Magician
Beware . . Mjolnir
Posts: 228
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Post by Rhuvein on Oct 3, 2008 16:18:01 GMT -5
I'm now doing a thorough reading of the Store Rooms and enjoying it very much. The "Brick" room is hilarious and should be a lot of fun for CKs. And if your players are "Thick" they will be in for some hurt!! So . . we have Thick as a Brick and The Minstrel in the Gallery - well done!
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Post by Scott on Feb 20, 2011 13:22:16 GMT -5
After much reading, and running CZ, I've come to the conclusion that I really don’t like the way the Castle was placed. It’s just too far away for an old school mega-dungeon campaign. Gary’s original 2-3 mile distance works perfectly. This long distance placement is a game spoiler, and not just for new parties. I really can’t see a low level party surviving for long. And even the time spent travelling and camping, and transporting is more of a pain than fun for parties that have gained a few levels. I think the East Mark is packed full of good stuff, and the castle/dungeons is great, but it just doesn’t work as is. I’d say the best options would be, place a settlement where the Old Castle Track branches off from the Menhir Hills road that the party can use as a way station while exploring the dungeons, and make the Old Castle track 2 – 3 miles long. Or just tear the East Mark apart and use it piecemeal. I’ve been using the East Mark as is since it was released, but I think I’m going to go back to a more straight Greyhawk setup when I restart my campaign, so I’ll probably be tearing it apart and placing the material in and around Greyhawk.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 27, 2011 14:43:56 GMT -5
I agree. As much as I love having a new Darlene map, I don't like the distances involved for a novice party.
Over the past few years, I have considered making my own map which is a combination of the East Mark material and what I know about the original geography around Greyhawk City. But I always seem to lose the motivation.
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Post by Scott on Feb 28, 2011 8:19:15 GMT -5
You need to run a campaign then. And BTW, I'll miss one more game night. I thought last Friday was the last game, but there a make up game this Friday.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 28, 2011 13:19:43 GMT -5
Actually, to this day, I have avoided reading CZ: The Upper Works, in the hopes that you (or somebody) would run it, and I could finish playing through it!
If I started a new Greyhawk Campaign, I don't think I would run CZ or any incarnation of Castle Greyhawk. I could easily get bogged down in the details of trying to make it as 'authentic as possible.' But I would never get there, I'd never be content with it...
Your approach, the way you have run your own home-brew Castle Greyhawk, is probably the best way to go... incorporate different elements from the various incarnations but mainly "do your own thing."
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Post by Scott on Feb 28, 2011 13:31:45 GMT -5
Well. I've been running some dungeon crawls through my homebrew if you want to stop over next time. I was waiting til I had something more epic outlined, and the time to run a regular campaign, before I mentioned anything to you, Mark, and Eric.
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Post by Scott on Mar 2, 2011 7:14:05 GMT -5
Do you think Eric and Mark would be up for an olde tyme dungeon crawl campaign? I've got something much more plot heavy brewing, but I'd like to run a mega dungeon for a while.
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 3, 2011 8:37:56 GMT -5
Mark might, but I don't think Eric would be into it. He seems to need more than tactics to stay interested. If you could incorporate some story and RPing into it, that might get him more engaged.
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Post by Scott on Mar 3, 2011 8:54:47 GMT -5
I'll let him make his own plots if he'd like, but I'd prefer to keep it pretty free form. I have a plot heavy campaign idea too, but I would like to try some old school dungeon crawling.
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