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Post by Scott on Jun 14, 2016 7:09:34 GMT -5
It's mostly for flavor: maybe a holy symbol here, or a faded mural, etc. Maybe one encounter where Norebo's background does affect play! I drew up the above ground monastery complex. I have t decided yet whether or not I want to expand it beyond the burned out shell described.
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Post by Scott on Jun 14, 2016 10:59:27 GMT -5
The Monastery. The DMG states: . But later it states:. I've always gone with the latter, and I think the 'dungeon' should be the main thrust of the adventure, but the earlier text implies there should be more. So I've whipped up a first draft of the monastery. I have a few ideas for more, these are basically spoiler-free notes. Any suggestions or feedback is welcome. Key: Outer Parlour Here is where most business with visitors was conducted. Living Quarters Once a two-story building where the low level and lay folk inhabitants of the monastery lived, now just a burned out shell. Kitchen Refectory Meals were served here Day Room Free time was spent here. Of course gambling was a popular activity. Baths Reredorter When you gotta go, you gotta go. Inner Parlour Smaller, private meetings were had here. Chapter House Large, non-religious meetings occurred here. Garth Once neatly trimmed and well tended, the garth is now overgrown with rank weeds and several stunted trees. The cloisters surrounds the garth have mostly collapsed. A statue of Norebo stands on a granite plinth in the center. The Temple A burned out shell. The Abbot’s Tower Once three stories: a vestry, living quarters, and a solar, the tower is now a burned out shell.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Jun 14, 2016 11:48:42 GMT -5
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Post by Scott on Jun 14, 2016 12:44:19 GMT -5
Maybe it's because my familiarity with Lovecraft goes way back, but that's how I've run ghouls for as long as I can remember.
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Post by Scott on Jun 14, 2016 13:06:24 GMT -5
And then there's those pesky lower caverns. My intentions when I've run the monastery have not been to level the PCs. I've always assumed they'd still be 1st level when they move on. I use it more as a way to introduce my style, and a way to fund the PCs so they have the ability to buy better equipment, and move on to bigger challenges. It's part of the reason why I've never really worried about detailing the surface, and why the lower caverns were always minimal; I didn't want them getting enough experience to reach level 2 yet. But if a bigger Wild Coast sand box is a possibility, then expanding the Monastery makes much more sense. Allan, I know you have your Caverns map linked back thread. Do you have a key that goes with it?
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 14, 2016 14:14:25 GMT -5
I saw minimalized campaigns over the years (mostly the 90's at the height of 2nd edition) that were way over their heads if anything was versatile or powerful so the DM would degrade volume and content for control. For some people that view is D&D and even though they never went down WOTC's D&D road or even Williams' initial dark path that is what they expect: brain dead "something is in the cabbage rows" type minimal fart garbage that I tried over and over in the attempt to find a good game to join. In direct relation to this the usual discourse of "low campaigns" over "low intelligence" in my experience is one of paladin's warhorses and spiders speaking. As for me putting ghouls out there, I can directly recall a game session in 1984 where I DMed ghouls and the players brokered a deal with them and as a player my rotten cleric "Shrill" used ghouls as spies to tunnel under town walls.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 14, 2016 14:15:44 GMT -5
Reredorter... well, I learned a new word today.
I like what you've drawn so far. I've always wondered how the caverns fit in with a fen location. Can there be natural caves under a wetland, that aren't totally water-filled?
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 14, 2016 14:35:18 GMT -5
Reredorter... well, I learned a new word today. I like what you've drawn so far. I've always wondered how the caverns fit in with a fen location. Can there be natural caves under a wetland, that aren't totally water-filled? As long as there is ample drainage then why not? Castle Greyhawk comes to mind but thats an exceptional and magical situation but so is a man who moves earth/lowers water in their deity's name and combined with free labor of the faithful...
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Post by Scott on Jun 14, 2016 14:38:00 GMT -5
The thought crossed my mind too, but I usually don't worry too much about it. If a player asked I guess I'd say the mound in the marsh formed around a bulge in the bedrock.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 14, 2016 15:07:14 GMT -5
Reredorter... well, I learned a new word today. I like what you've drawn so far. I've always wondered how the caverns fit in with a fen location. Can there be natural caves under a wetland, that aren't totally water-filled? As long as there is ample drainage then why not? Castle Greyhawk comes to mind but thats an exceptional and magical situation but so is a man who moves earth/lowers water in their deity's name and combined with free labor of the faithful... Sorry, looks I said the spell move earth well I guess it could be indirectly anyways...
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Post by grodog on Jun 14, 2016 16:24:45 GMT -5
The Monastery. The DMG states: . But later it states:. I've always gone with the latter, and I think the 'dungeon' should be the main thrust of the adventure, but the earlier text implies there should be more. So I've whipped up a first draft of the monastery. I have a few ideas for more, these are basically spoiler-free notes. Any suggestions or feedback is welcome. I asked Gary about the maps over on ENWorld @ www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?22566-Q-amp-A-with-Gary-Gygax&p=3925108&viewfull=1#post3925108 and he responded @ www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?22566-Q-amp-A-with-Gary-Gygax&p=3926107&viewfull=1#post3926107 that he didn't know that all three maps hadn't been added to the book. So, adding a full monastery map and the village with surrounding wilderness (including fen and monastery, with the secret entrance/exit, monster lairs, etc.) seems like a good project! I also asked Mike Carr about this, and he didn't recall any details about the 3 maps either (perhaps asking Jeff Leason would also be worthwhile). And then there's those pesky lower caverns. [snip] But if a bigger Wild Coast sand box is a possibility, then expanding the Monastery makes much more sense. Allan, I know you have your Caverns map linked back thread. Do you have a key that goes with it? I don't recall keying one, but I can check if you like? That map is so bland, I'd redo it to feature a larger, worked area (winecellars, cold storage, etc.), while also preserving the overall cavernous nature of the level. Come to think of it, you could easily substitute the 2nd level of B1 for the lower-level caves, couldn't you?: projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/images/96d55ebaab3867c5da74e89e5a9cfdee70675e8c29247ac77b415c0684a8f95c.jpegAllan.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Jun 14, 2016 16:37:55 GMT -5
When I was a kid (either the summer I was 10 or maybe when I was 11) I stocked this dungeon - I remember writing the key on a yellow legal-pad while sitting by the pool - but I'm pretty sure I just did it totally funhouse-style - I suspect (under the influence of the Mentzer-edit Basic Set) I probably included a rust monster or a carrion crawler (or both) and a magic mouth that spoke riddles. I also remember intending that this be the first level of a huge (6 or 8 level) dungeon, though I don't think I did anything past the second (or gave a moment's thought to why so big a dungeon would be below this monastery and only accessible via one secret stairway). I probably still have that in a box somewhere, but I can't imagine it not being embarrassing to look back on.
Looking at the map again, I'm wondering what I'd do with it now. We know a few features/inhabitants from the wandering monster table and text, but there's that big chunk of unexplained rooms (14-23) that I can't figure out what they would've been used for when the monastery was active - if they're all/mostly empty now it feels like there are way too many of them, but if they're inhabited why don't any of the inhabitants wander like the bandits, goblins, and fire beetles do? Plus there's the question of what those bandits and goblins are doing there, and how they're getting in and out leaving only "light and infrequent" tracks (presumably the evil priest and hobgoblins in the crypt section are going in and our via location 39, but not the others). The secret/not-secret passage by room 8 is also weird.
On the one hand it's fun to think about that stuff and figure it out what may have been intended, but on the other I feel the need to remind myself not to overthink it - that this was just created as an example and most almost certainly nothing was intended.
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Post by Scott on Jun 14, 2016 16:38:04 GMT -5
That's probably the extent of the cavern complex I'd like, but I agree with your comment that there should be a larger, partially worked section.
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Post by Scott on Jun 14, 2016 16:46:54 GMT -5
If I'm going to go with Norebo, it's possible that the monastery also served as a safe house for wanted thieves and assassins, or even a stand in guildhall, or at least a training location. Or the monastics living there may have been known for their peat moss whiskey or their ale? This long after the sacking, there may be no trace left of what many of those rooms were for, and you can ignore the history and just write around the current inhabitants.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Jun 14, 2016 16:49:29 GMT -5
I never, until you asked Gary about it, had any impression that those other two maps ever actually existed, much less that they were intended to be included in the book. That whole section is hypothetical - "Assume you have assembled a group of players..." - and I always just understood that when he says "before you are three maps" what he really means is "if you were actually playing this hypothetical scene out for real, before you would be three maps." The way those two maps are described in generalities ("lairs of any monsters that happen to dwell in the area, " "1 square to 10' might be in order," etc.) also makes it sound like he's describing hypothetical, rather than actual, maps.
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Post by Scott on Jun 14, 2016 17:00:51 GMT -5
That's my impression as well; there was only one map.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 14, 2016 18:13:42 GMT -5
For some people that view is D&D and even though they never went down WOTC's D&D road or even Williams' initial dark path that is what they expect: brain dead "something is in the cabbage rows" type minimal fart garbage that I tried over and over in the attempt to find a good game to join. Heh, I think "Something is in the Cabbage Rows" is the name of a 0-level prelude adventure leading into the Kobold Farmer Saga. "Oh, the copper pieces you'll find!"
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 14, 2016 20:13:08 GMT -5
As long as there is ample drainage then why not? Castle Greyhawk comes to mind but thats an exceptional and magical situation but so is a man who moves earth/lowers water in their deity's name and combined with free labor of the faithful... Well if there's enough drainage there's no wetland... But, you're right, you can always explain it with magic. Or, Scott's idea of a dome of bedrock works also. Not that most players would ask or care, but I always like to have answers and in-game explanations.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 14, 2016 21:12:40 GMT -5
The ancients would drain mines with screws so there might be some tech available.
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Post by grodog on Jun 14, 2016 23:23:10 GMT -5
I never, until you asked Gary about it, had any impression that those other two maps ever actually existed, much less that they were intended to be included in the book. That whole section is hypothetical - "Assume you have assembled a group of players..." - and I always just understood that when he says "before you are three maps" what he really means is "if you were actually playing this hypothetical scene out for real, before you would be three maps." The way those two maps are described in generalities ("lairs of any monsters that happen to dwell in the area, " "1 square to 10' might be in order," etc.) also makes it sound like he's describing hypothetical, rather than actual, maps. Agreed: it always read that way to me BITD too, and I gradually forgot that there were "supposed" to be three maps until I reread that section in 2007 and then asked. It would be cool if there was another set of maps---say in the collection of materials that Paul Stormberg had from Gail, but we don't lose much if they don't exist, clearly. That said, I'm inclined to think now that the wilderness/environs map probably did exist, and that it was repurposed for the outdoor map for B2; perhaps the village map was used as the basis for Hommlet? All three projects were in the works around the same time, and bear uncanny resemblances to one another as we've discussed previously relative to unfrozencavemandicechucker.blogspot.com/
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