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Post by grodog on Sept 11, 2005 18:26:23 GMT -5
grodog, buddy... I view Yggsburgh as "the first step on a very long journey..." It may not have the traps/monsters/treasures of the ensuing dungeons or Dark Chateau, but it is an integral piece of the whole. As for HOMP...I think you need to look deeper. It's a myriad of encounters, ranging from thinking puzzles to (possible) mega-combat to just plain silliness. I think more illustrations in the booklet would have been nice in a couple of areas--but being a middling sketcher, I guess I'll draw the necessary vistas myself. ^__^ Thanks GT, I think I needed the pep talk I'll give the book and HOMP a deeper perusal for sure, my first impressions just weren't of the "I cannot possibly not buy this right now!" kind.
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Post by grodog on Sept 11, 2005 18:35:30 GMT -5
Text size is large? Compared to what? The 1st Edition DMG? I think the text size in Yggsburgh is smaller than in most modern products. It's much smaller than, say, the text size in the d20 version of The Eight Kings. Perhaps my recollection is off (it's definitely been known to happen ), but the font size in Yggsburgh seemed par with Canting Crew and HOMP, and seemed larger to me than I'd want in any rpg book---including Eight Kings (I argued for a smaller font on that, but Tadashi wanted a larger one for helping readability). I don't have my copies of Eight Kings or Canting Crew at hand to be able to compare, so I can't say for sure if I'm just not remembering the book well. That said, my main gripe is with the layout independant of the text size: it's so minimalistic that it detracts from the page reading experience (for me, at least). The page headers and footers, the text headings, sidebars, etc. should all help to move the eye across the page, to help you physically read the text. In theory, the layout should also help to build a good first impression about the book (along with no finding any typos in your first five minute flip through). The Valus page samples at www.diffworlds.com/images..._04-07.pdf illustrate Tadashi's general style, and IIRC they're pretty similar to MoZ4's layout methodology too. Not sure if that helps clarify my first impressions or not? I hope that when I have the books in hand, these first impressions will be driven off, but for the moment they're what's sticking with me :/
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Post by grodog on Sept 11, 2005 18:36:25 GMT -5
and finding out I'm gonna be a Dad in late March! ^__^ Congrats GT! Are you having a boy, girl, or one of each?
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dcas
Warlock
Duke of Pennsylvania, Knight Commander
Posts: 481
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Post by dcas on Sept 11, 2005 19:23:53 GMT -5
...and by the way, Scotty--Thanks for the title! I don't believe I have expressed my gratitude yet. Summer was quite busy with work, cross-country canoe trips (on the Wabash), caving, and finding out I'm gonna be a Dad in late March! ^__^ Congratutions, sir! Btw, Scotty, while we're speaking of titles, I must say I like mine, too.
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Post by Scott on Sept 11, 2005 19:46:13 GMT -5
I 'borrowed' the titles from the Order of the British Empire.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Sept 11, 2005 21:04:50 GMT -5
The font-size in Yggsburgh isn't nearly as big as in "The Canting Crew," but is still appreciably larger than the font on, say, the 1980 World of Greyhawk folio. If the WoG is 8pt (which is my guess), CZ is probably about 11pt. It feels big to me too, and because of the small margins the text feels 'crowded' to me, but not to the point of distraction (as was the case with "The Canting Crew"). The one place where the large font-size really stands out is in the multitude of lists and tables -- with a smaller font and less whitespace between table entries I can only guess at how much pagecount could've been saved. One big improvement I note over HOMP is that they've finally started justifying the right margins. Those jagged margins in HOMP looked horribly sloppy and unprofessional and I'm very glad to see them gone.
As for typos, though, thery're still all over the place. For instance, the header, found at the top of every even-numbered page in the book, lists the title as "Castles Zagyg: Yggsburgh." I haven't been keeping track, but I'd say that in my reading so far I've found probably 40-50 typos and other non-typo editorial mistakes -- using "magic-user" in place of "wizard" (though I must admit I actually like that mistake), gnole instead of gnoll, and so on, and at least a couple instances of White Wolf's famous "see p. XX" page references. Not as numerous or serious as the editorial gaffes in HOMP (which rendered that book, at least for me, virtually unreadable), but distracting and annoying nonetheless.
The interior art is what it is -- Peter Bradley. I don't like his work, and don't think it's stylistically appropriate to the material, but it doesn't bother me as much here as it has in some other places. There are a few 'landscape' pictures (pp. 103, 110, 115, 121, 126, 203) that I'd almost go so far as to say I actually like. The interior maps aren't great, I don't see why they can't just do straightofrward non 'artistic' maps in the style of the old TSR modules, but they at least seem to be accurate, which places them several steps above HOMP and Dark Druids. Darlene's wilderness map is gorgeous, but I have some issues -- 1) the poster-map is too big, it easily could've been half the size (which would've made the hexes about the same size as on the WoG poster-maps), and 2) I don't like having the encounter locations marked on the poster-map -- I'd have prefered if they'd been marked only on the small map in the book, leaving the poster 'clean' (and able to be shown to players).
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Post by Scott on Sept 11, 2005 21:47:43 GMT -5
While I don't quite understand complaints about the poster map being too big (it is a 'poster' map afterall), or the hexes being a different size than the WoG maps, I agree that having the encounter numbers displayed on the large map was a mistake.
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dcas
Warlock
Duke of Pennsylvania, Knight Commander
Posts: 481
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Post by dcas on Sept 12, 2005 8:05:05 GMT -5
I think it may actually be spelled that way in M&T. I seem to remember discussion about it. Of course I don't have M&T so I couldn't say for certain. "Gnole" wouldn't concern me much because one wouldn't think that it would be caught by your average spell-checker. Misspelled English words are more of a concern IMO. I'm guessing that the font size for most of the text in CZ is 10. It's certainly smaller than 12. I don't like the interior cartography even a little bit. Again, it's not a major concern since the dungeon areas are small. If the dungeons of Castle Zagyg are as vast and intricate as Gary and Rob say they are, I think a 'non-artistic' mapping style will be necessary.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Sept 12, 2005 12:03:55 GMT -5
I think it may actually be spelled that way in M&T. I seem to remember discussion about it. Of course I don't have M&T so I couldn't say for certain. "Gnole" wouldn't concern me much because one wouldn't think that it would be caught by your average spell-checker. Misspelled English words are more of a concern IMO. If it were spelled "gnole" throughout I actually wouldn't mind (especially since that's the spelling used by Lord Dunsany), but it's not -- sometimes it's gnole, sometimes it's gnoll.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Sept 12, 2005 12:41:11 GMT -5
While I don't quite understand complaints about the poster map being too big (it is a 'poster' map afterall), or the hexes being a different size than the WoG maps, I agree that having the encounter numbers displayed on the large map was a mistake. It's not so much the size of the map that bothers me so much, as that I think Darlene's cartography looks better at the smaller scale -- her hills, trees, etc. I think look better at the size they are on the WoG map, and at this scale I think they look "too big." Or maybe I'm just not used to it and will eventually grow accustomed...
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Post by Scott on Sept 12, 2005 13:25:36 GMT -5
Wasn't gnole the original spelling from the source Gygax used, and he changed it to gnoll for D&D?
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GT
Wizard
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Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Sept 13, 2005 18:45:07 GMT -5
Dave--maybe you could copy/paste your errata list somewhere here...?
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dcas
Warlock
Duke of Pennsylvania, Knight Commander
Posts: 481
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Post by dcas on Sept 13, 2005 21:14:19 GMT -5
Here's the thread: CZ ErrataI think it covers all of the important stuff; there are some typos I haven't cited since in most cases the meaning is obvious. I did catch a "see p. XX" error the other day, but I can't recall exactly where it was.
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dcas
Warlock
Duke of Pennsylvania, Knight Commander
Posts: 481
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Post by dcas on Sept 13, 2005 21:17:49 GMT -5
I 'borrowed' the titles from the Order of the British Empire. "Knight Grand Cross" sounds more like a Papal knighthood to me.
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Post by Scott on Sept 13, 2005 21:53:35 GMT -5
Those silly protestants.
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Post by Scott on Sept 13, 2005 21:58:19 GMT -5
Has anybody used any of the Yggsburgh material in game yet? I haven't, other than some of the random encounter material I've been using since the preview. I was planning on starting a campaign with DC, but you never know how long that could be, especially since the Trolls seem to be ignoring the question. My ToEE campaign is still running, but I've been too lazy to write updates.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Sept 14, 2005 0:57:38 GMT -5
So far the only things that have really stood out to me as 'I want to use this in a game" have been the Striped Mage and the Outs Inn (I'm a sucker for detailed inn-descriptions in modules -- the Inn of the Welcome Wench, Ye Olde Comeback Inn (from DA1), etc.). Most of the "adventure hooks" I've found to be very bland and disappointing: "monster x is threatening area y; the characters are sent to defeat it" and I'm getting the same sort of feeling I got from too much of HOMP, that Gary seems to be valuing quantity over quality. I liked some things about the Mound Island adventure a lot, but there's one element (which I won't spoil here, but if you'd read this section you can probably guess) which totally spoiled it for me, and will keep me from running the adventure without significant modification. I haven't yet read any of the other "dungeon" areas -- Cursed Mines, etc.
My feeling overall has been that this book is signifcantly padded with both unnecessary detail (I like having lots of detail in some areas -- such as The Outs Inn -- but feel that overall way too much space is spent on things that are never likely to actually see use in a game) and mundane 'filler' adventure hooks, and that there's probably only about 96pp of material I'd ever use in this 256pp book.
I'm also extremely disappointed in the almost complete lack of references to Zagyg or his castle in this book -- except for that one hex on the area-map it's essentially as if neither one exist. Compare/contrast to the sort of impact on the surrounding area Zagig Yragerne is mentioned as having in the 1980 WoG folio (he completely transformed the city twice -- once in his lifetime, and again after his death/apotheosis by means of riches recovered from his castle). I was hoping for hints and rumors about the castle, dubious types willing to serve as guides for gullible parties, retired adventurers who made their fortunes in the dungeons, monsters that escaped from the dungeons menacing the wilderness, etc. and got none of it. It would be like if T1 had made no mention whatsoever of the Temple of Elemental Evil excapt for a blurb on the cover mentioning that it was intended as a lead-in to T2. I wanted this module to whet my appetite for the castle itself, to make the suspense until volumes 2+ are released almost unbearable, but it doesn't, and in fact makes you forget that there's a castle to be explored at all...
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Post by Scott on Sept 14, 2005 22:57:08 GMT -5
...and by the way, Scotty--Thanks for the title! I don't believe I have expressed my gratitude yet. Summer was quite busy with work, cross-country canoe trips (on the Wabash), caving, and finding out I'm gonna be a Dad in late March! ^__^ GT, will this be your first child? Scott
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dcas
Warlock
Duke of Pennsylvania, Knight Commander
Posts: 481
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Post by dcas on Sept 15, 2005 10:42:08 GMT -5
GT, will this be your first child? If it weren't, he'd be a Dad already! ;D
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Post by Scott on Sept 15, 2005 10:54:13 GMT -5
Keep it up smart guy and your title won't sound as noble as a papal knighthood for much longer.
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