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Post by Scott on Nov 24, 2007 8:26:51 GMT -5
I'm not talking about the geography. Political consideration make the location a bad one. Placing Yggsburgh less than 60 miles south of Greyhawk, within the territory Greyhawk controls, makes the conditions described in the Yggsburgh book implausible. A distance of 300 miles, the listed distance to Dunfalcon, works, and would allow all of the conditions in Yggsburgh and the surrounding environs to work.
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 24, 2007 11:08:51 GMT -5
It depends to what extent Greyhawk City 'controls' the surrounding countryside. Greyhawk's recent history is a waning of local political control, receding back from the northern Wild Coast and Hardby. Still, it is odd for a city of Yggsburgh's size not to be on the original map. You could shoehorn it in there... But this still makes for an odd fit, because if adventurers are basing themselves in Yggsburgh to explore Castle Zagyg, what is the ruins near Dunfalcon/Greyhawk? Overall, I just look at Yggsburgh as being in an alternate universe ("In the other universe, Reed Richards is the Thing!").
My own interest in Greyhawk has increased over the years. When I was young I was all about doing the original, home-brewed, being creative-thing. But that's probably because I had pencils, graph paper, lots of free time and no money. Greyhawk always represented to me all the modules and supplements I couldn't afford! I still remember seeing someone unfold that Darlene map, with all its color and evocative places like Furyondy, the Horned Society, the Great Kingdom, the Sea of Dust, the Land of Black Ice... I still feel a mix of wonder and potential when I look at it.
I don't see Greyhawk as a dead setting, at all. I think using the 1st edition rules and the 83 boxed set to run a campaign is perfectly viable, just as viable as playing the original Axis & Allies or Monopoly or any other classic game. It's still a great game and a great setting. To me, the post-Gygax official Greyhawk stuff is also an alternate universe -- the equivalent of Cthulhu Mythos stories written by Derleth, Conan written by Robert Jordan, or fan fiction set in Middle Earth. I can take or leave pastiche. But it doesn't detract from what was created all those years ago.
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Post by Scott on Nov 24, 2007 11:25:16 GMT -5
If you're going by the guide, Greyhawk is expanding. It currently claims the land from the Nyr Dyv to the Neen, and "the Despotrix of Hardby now pays tribute to Greyhawk to avoid being absorbed in the growing city state once again". I think it would be better to redraw that portion of the map than cramming it onto the map as is. As you says, it would be shoehorning, and I don't feel it really works. I still feel pretty much the same way as you do when I look at the Greyhawk material, but I also feel a sense of loss, and disappointment when I think of what could have come of it.
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 24, 2007 12:42:21 GMT -5
I was thinking of the time period just before that: "In 498 CY it [Greyhawk] was proclaimed a free and independent city, ruling a territory from Hardby on the Woolly bay to the Nyr Dyv, between the eastern folds of the Cairn Hills and the Gnarley Forest, including what is now the northern section of the Wild Coast region. These holdings have been lost over the intervening decades and a decline in trade seemed certain to turn the place into a backwater, save for recent events." If one wanted to retro-fit Yggsburgh onto the Neen and Ery Rivers, Yggsburgh could have itself become a free city in those "intervening decades" when Greyhawk's influence receded -- but at present is on the edge of Greyhawk's resurgence. But this still raises the question of why Hardby -- a city even further away -- would pay tribute, if Yggsburgh -- which is closer -- is still a free city. Just not quite a perfect fit. This discussion reminds me of when you were running Dark Chateau and Gaxmoor and we kept asking you "So is this Greyhawk, Yggsburgh, or what?" and the answer ended up being it was just sort of a "Gregghawk" (what a coincidence that your last name is perfect for the syncretism).
At this point, as a Greyhawk fan, I'll just be happy to see the Castle Zagyg project finished. That's a hell of lot better than what I was expecting -- which was nothing.
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Post by grodog on Nov 28, 2007 22:34:24 GMT -5
At this point, as a Greyhawk fan, I'll just be happy to see the Castle Zagyg project finished. That's a hell of lot better than what I was expecting -- which was nothing. Hear hear! I haven't had a chance to do more than flip through the CZ folio, Jeff, but I've liked what I've seen thus far My interest in GH also continues to expand, as I build from the baseline materials (for whenever it's my turn to DM our current group of 8). While I'm willing to look at the newer books and articles (and have, for example, recently started to think about how to reconcile Greyhawk Ruins with Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk with CZ and with the original Castle levels), my primary interest remains the primary source material from Gary and Rob (and, more rarely, others). I'm working up the lands all around Maure Castle, and far-flung Maure enclaves (a Wee Jas monastery not too far from Greyhawk City, for example), and networks of gates and standing stones, etc., etc. It's all fun and inspiring to me. (Digression: I guess that's where I can find some good value from the newer books/materials, even if I don't use them as is/directly from the book: if they inspire some other ideas sufficiently worthwhile for me, then I can look favorably upon the book, even if it was only OK overall). Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing more GH material and ex-GH material see print (come on Bottle City, my mailbox is waiting!!!), and am hopeful that we'll see a sort of GH Renaissance as Gary and Rob publish more material from their vaults!
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ghul
Enchanter
Posts: 272
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Post by ghul on Nov 28, 2007 23:19:19 GMT -5
Thanks for picking it up, Allan. GH remains strong, no matter what the owner of its IP does. It's the fans that matter, even those whose canon is radically different than my own. I also DM a group of 8 (weekly game), so I understand the attraction of investigating past and present GH publications and drawing from them as desired. For example, I recently happened upon a fan's version of the Saltmarsh. Just a map with a key that named locations in the fishing village, but I found it to be far more suitable for my campaign than the published version as found in the DMG II by WotC, which seemed to have little regard for the Saltmarsh I've known since I was a snot-nosed teenager -- the one as portrayed in the U-series. But of course, tastes vary, so some fans might find the DMG II version more appropriate. I admit, I'm probably more on the Gene spectrum of the GH scale -- a cranky old dude, LOL. I pretty much use the '83 boxed set and everything beyond that is subject to my scrutiny, including Gary and Rob's "From the Sorcerer's Scroll" articles, as their GH current events summaries might not mesh with what I have in mind, but they make excellent inspirational material. Anyway, thanks for the kind comment, Allan. Hearing positive comments from the grognards I greatly respect is heartening to me. Regards, --Jeff T.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Dec 2, 2007 14:25:19 GMT -5
Well, here's another "cranky ol' grognard" (OK, usually I'm a bit jovial... ), and I must say that I await this product with baited breath! As do several other "cranky old grognards" from north-central Indiana! ^__^
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Dec 2, 2007 14:30:16 GMT -5
Hmmm... I guess it's like: "Well, I worked with Gershwin, so I guess i should continue on where he left off... " Yeah, tough gig!! ^__^
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Post by Scott on Dec 2, 2007 14:33:09 GMT -5
There's a lot about Expedition book that sucks, but one thing I must say, like the style or not, you can feel an amount of respect for the original material that is lacking in most of the Greyhawk products released in the past 20+ years. And even though there's no chance I'd run this adventure as is, there are pieces that I find good enough to run with a few small alterations.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Dec 2, 2007 14:49:36 GMT -5
Maybe Gary is like the Beatles, Eagles, Pink Floyd, et al. are becoming to a whole new generation of music-listeners: respect is given where it's due...
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Post by Scott on Dec 2, 2007 14:52:29 GMT -5
Nah. I think it has more to due with the fact that Mona was one of those involved.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Dec 2, 2007 15:00:36 GMT -5
Well, that could be too! ^__^ I still like the "classic rock" analogy though! ;D
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Post by Scott on Dec 2, 2007 15:03:28 GMT -5
lol, I liked it, I just don't buy it with the un-grognardly types.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Dec 2, 2007 15:09:32 GMT -5
Yeah--that's kinda like buying "The Planet Earth" DVD set just because Oprah said it was cool--months after I already had decided this!! ^__^
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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 2, 2007 16:06:51 GMT -5
Sadly, there seems to be a newer generation of Greyhawk fans who piss on 1st edition AD&D and the era of Gygax's original creation... strangely enough. I peeked in over at the Canonfire forums the other day. On a thread about "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk" some guy wrote "Still buying Castle Zagyg instead" and someone named chatdemon responded: "Yes, of course, wouldn't want to get kicked out of the Gygax fanclub now, would we?" and the original poster replied: "Uhh no. I just don't play 3e and see no need getting it."
It's so odd how some people are hostile to anyone who doesn't go along with the "New/Latest/Official Greyhawk." It's as if there was this frothing-at-the-mouth fan community that liked Robert Jordan's Conan stories and made scathing remarks to any fan that dared to assert he liked REH's original writings better...
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Dec 2, 2007 18:08:10 GMT -5
As I recollect, said "chatdemon" is oft hostile towards 1E folk-- can I get a witness??
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Post by Scott on Dec 2, 2007 18:25:41 GMT -5
He's hostile towards anybody that disagrees with him, or anybody that agrees with somebody that disagrees with him, or anybody that likes anything written by anybody that disagrees with him, or anybody that likes something written by somebody that somebody who has disagreed with him likes, etc, etc, etc.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 2, 2007 21:18:39 GMT -5
Thats why I lost inertia for forum talk. The toleration of "home team" (read: whatever's coming down the official pipe) aggressors who have no rhyme or reason by moderators just because they're "home team favorites" just pisses me off to no end.
Have any of those aggressively pro-Mona/pro-Sargent GH people of the "Williams' swan song/early WOTC D&D" GH era actually physically surfaced somewhere in a photo on the net?
I always wondered if some of them were real people or perhaps they were one of the Williams TSR staff.
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Post by grodog on Dec 2, 2007 23:11:55 GMT -5
Rich/chatdemon's opinions do change over time however; he's been strongly negative about EGG and RJK in the past, and is pretty negative about CZ because it's not the real castle (IIRC), but he's pretty positive about RJK's efforts since they will be (both MC and the LGC&C series). So, he's not easily pigeonholed, per se. Kind of like Gene
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Post by Scott on Dec 3, 2007 8:44:01 GMT -5
Last I read, Rich was not a fan of 'official' or Mona, and I can't recall him saying anything positive about Rob lately.
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