Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk

[GT]

I wish I'd checked this out sooner... I can't really add anything! ^__^

[ghul]

Hi guys,

Everything mentioned above by Foster, and much, much more, will indeed be included in Castle Zagyg.

Fellows, if you've read Gary's musings regarding the old campaign in "Up on a Soapbox" (in Dragon) or have followed his Q&As over the years in which he reminisces about the old campaign, you will not be disappointed by Castle Zagyg. In fact, if you are into the sort of legendary and nostalgic encounters such as Foster notes, you may well be like a kid in a candy store as these sets are released.

Work is progressing smoothly, and I'm happy that interest is still there in this project. Working with/for Gary, I'm like a master blacksmith's apprentice, and my bloodied hands are finally starting to form calluses. It's been incredible learning experience thus far, and I don't take a moment of it for granted.

Re: Ruins of Greyhawk. Similarities between the official product and Gary's CZ are virtually non-existent (yes, I bought it and read it), except for the fact that they both star a fellow named Zagyg. But I don't see any reason why a creative DM can't use any of Gary's, Rob's, or Eric's (and crew) and combine them as desired. Just don't use that joke version of Castle Greyhawk from the 80's. That would be offensive to my delicate sensibilities.

Regards,
--Jeff T.

[GRWelsh]

Thanks for the info, Jeff. What exactly is the relationship between you and Gary? Did he send you all the notes and material, and tell you to do the actual writing -- albeit under his editorship and guidance? Or are you sharing that actual writing of text? If you are sharing, what percentage would you say you are each handling?

I leafed throught Expedition to the Ruins of (Official) Greyhawk. I'm not going to say anything negative about it, because I like Erik, he's an old pal from GREYtalk. Also, I don't play 3.5, and who knows, if I wrote my own version of it maybe I wouldn't do any better myself. It just makes me want the 'real thing' all the more, though. But I have to ask -- and I'm not saying this to be antagonistic -- what are we going to get from the Castle Zagyg project you're working on? Will it be something like 80% Gygax/20% Talanian, or what?

[ghul]

grashyewl said:

Thanks for the info, Jeff. What exactly is the relationship between you and Gary?

In late 2005 I answered Gary's call for submissions regarding the Yggsburgh expansion project, in which 24 modules were planned. These modules (19 in town, 5 in the suburbs)were to each detail a district of the Free Town of Yggsburgh, which is the setting for Castle Zagyg. Gary accepted my proposal letter in November of 2005, but I was put on standby as each opening had already been filled. By January of 2006, one of the designers dropped out of the project, so I stepped in to write The Grand Temple & College District. It took me about 4 months to complete. During that time, another designer dropped out of the project, so I picked up his project.

And so it went.

By the end of 2006 and into January 2007 I'd designed 4 of the 24 Yggsburgh modules, the first two of which have finally been solicited by Troll Lord Games (and one of them is my Town Halls District) -- www.trolllord.com/newsite/zagyg/8020.html

While I was working on the fourth module of that series, I was asked if I'd like to help Gary design Castle Zagyg. I accepted, and here I am! Thanks for asking.

Did he send you all the notes and material, and tell you to do the actual writing -- albeit under his editorship and guidance? Or are you sharing that actual writing of text? If you are sharing, what percentage would you say you are each handling?

Gary put together a "CZ bible" for me to work with. In addition to this he has sent me piles of notes, emails, directions, etc.

I am hesitant to say I am doing the "actual writing" -- collaborative process is more precise. A collaborative process in which Gary is in the driver's seat and I'm riding shotgun. While he does afford me a certain amount of latitude in the creative process, this is Gary's baby 100%. Yes, I am doing a lot of the grunt work writing, but everything I write has been directed by Gary, then is passed in to Gary. He then adds to, revises, or replaces encounters and scenarios as he sees fit. I am developing ideas created by Gary Gygax under his direct supervision and his guidance and his collaboration.

I leafed throught Expedition to the Ruins of (Official) Greyhawk. I'm not going to say anything negative about it, because I like Erik, he's an old pal from GREYtalk. Also, I don't play 3.5, and who knows, if I wrote my own version of it maybe I wouldn't do any better myself. It just makes me want the 'real thing' all the more, though.

The tone, the presentation, the style in which they execute the design of adventure is not like Castle Zagyg at all. That is not to say it is bad. It's just different. I, too, have a great respect for Mr. Mona and the lengths he's gone through to keep Greyhawk alive.

But I have to ask -- and I'm not saying this to be antagonistic -- what are we going to get from the Castle Zagyg project you're working on? Will it be something like 80% Gygax/20% Talanian, or what?

I'm not reading you as antagonistic at all. You should this fellow "Halaster Blackcloak." He has serious issues with the CZ project and seems to be on a mission to destroy it, and he certainly has the ear of the people who frequent the site he posts at. I tried to explain much of what I'm explaining to you -- that Gary brought me on to co-design CZ, but he threatens, slanders, and defames us professionally and personally and the moderators allow it, so I won't go there anymore.

So, to your last question, I don't believe it can be measured in percentages as you request. Consider it this way. A man came up with an idea/invention. He asks another man to help him develop it. The idea is then developed in a collaborative process, a give and take, back and forth. The man who created the idea has the final say on every aspect of the final presentation. I hope that helps, and I thank you for your interest.

Regards,
--Jeff T.

[Scott]

Halaster Blackcloak is one of the few posters to ever recieve a permanent ban from Dragonsfoot. I don't know of a board he's posted on where he hasn't started trouble.

[GRWelsh]

Thanks for the answers, Jeff, that is very enlightening. I wish you the best with the project, and I'm looking forward to seeing it done. You are fortunate to be getting to work with the Big G, I'm happy for you.

Scott, I had always envisioned/hoped for you doing something like what Jeff is doing now.

[ghul]

Thanks for the kind words. I hope you have the opportunity to check out CZ and let me know your thoughts and opinions.

Regards,
--Jeff T.

[GT]

I'm very much looking forward to this Jeff! My players keep asking: "When?? WHEN???" , and I say "Patience--the wait is sauce for the meal!" ^__^

[ghul]

Thanks! Well, I don't want your players to wait much longer, so I'm going to let the computer go to sleep mode and roll my chair across the room to my drafting table, where a big map is in progress...

Cheers!
--Jeff T.

[geneweigel]

I respectfully disagree with any notion that theres some kind of saving grace behind a product like "Expedition". Its always "poor guy at least he tried". I don't see it that way at all. They still need to clean up their act over there. Its going on twenty years of nothing good called Greyhawk. Thats a pretty bad track record especially the latter end of the mess. Just for the record, I had to state my thoughts not that it matters...

[ghul]

Matters to me. I enjoy your opinions, whether I agree or not. You shoot from the hip and take no prisoners. This is to be admired. Means you got cojones.

[Scott]

The fact that it is supposed to be Greyhawk is part of what makes it so bad. There is some usable stuff in the book, but when I read the Greyhawk stuff, I just cringe. The setting is so removed from what Gygax created.

[geneweigel]

There's a project: a Grognard's Guide to Greyhawk: For the Extreme Fan By The Extreme Fans

[GT]

"The fact that it is supposed to be Greyhawk is part of what makes it so bad. There is some usable stuff in the book, but when I read the Greyhawk stuff, I just cringe. The setting is so removed from what Gygax created. "
I think that this is what really stuck in my craw during the Lorraine-era TSR. They couldn't just drop the whole Greyhawk into Limb; rather they decided to "kick it around" first by releasing inferior or downright horrid stuff with the name "Greyhawk" attached to it.

[geneweigel]

I know people chatter around about Greyhawk on the internet but its never a real conversation about Greyhawk. The latter chatter dominates everything on the web no matter what format that you present it in. The adherents can't even grasp their irrelevance and bury everything with claims that we have false memories. That one I love because its in flaming print, assholes!

I know Rob says don't drag anything down to promote yourself but he's never been a fan of real Greyhawk. So he couldn't understand as he's from the inside of that world's creation. Thats why he lives in a past where published Greyhawk never happened and Gary never wrote it and other writers that didn't "get it" wrecked it. Its all the potential end product to him. Truth is, there is no middle ground like that for original GH fans on the same footing (disliking 2e and on). At least, there is no middle ground for the outspoken because if the ideas pushed out don't have that "zing" then we're talking about disappointing people who have been disappointed over and over again for twenty years.

I have this to say about CZ:MoM, I was reading it last night through and I'll be damned if it wasn't good. (SHUT UP , GHUL! ) Why can't they get that with the Greyhawk license? I don't get it. A bunch of yahoos are camped out around D&D and Greyhawk's license so the rest of the world has to pay for it?

To they that hold the D&D/Greyhawk license in a death grip:

GROW UP AND GET A REAL JOB!

Boy! What was in his coffee?

[ghul]

I would enjoy nothing more than to work with the Greyhawk license with my pal and mentor, Gary Gygax, revisiting the best FRPG setting ever created, presenting it as many fans would like to see it presented. Unfortunately, this is not likely to happen, as I'm not part of the "published" GH fraternity and Gary will not work for them; nor do I believe the spirit of True GH could possibly be captured in the 4e format that Wizards is unleashing. Also, at Gen Con I introduced myself to the Paizo GH guys (Mona, Jacobs) the crew that wrote the Expedition. They said hello but otherwise showed zero interest in talking to me. Which is fine (and don't get me wrong, they were polite -- just disinterested), but it shows me that my chance of ever getting in their circle for a good paying gig in RPG design is not very likely to happen.

Put it to you this way, the best thing that could have resulted from that judge's decision years ago was Gary's right to retain all the anagrams of his name and likeness. This has allowed Gary and the Trolls to publish Castle Zagyg. So what we have is the TRUE... oh, shit, I forgot -- I'll shut up now!

[Scott]

My interest in "Greyhawk" has really dropped over the last few years.
I like hearing stories from Gary's home campaign, but that's really it. I consider it a 'dead' setting. I still eagerly await new releases from EGG, Rob K, etc. but I don't look at them as adding to my Greyhawk campaign. I'm more interested in developing my own setting and working the good stuff into it.

[ghul]

I see what you're saying, but Greyhawk is so sparse in detail you can really make it your own. I run a 576 CY campaign using the '83 boxed set. Yggsburgh is placed at the confluence if the Eery and Neen rivers.

[Scott]

Yeah, the campaign setting was sparse. The Dragon articles and the module background was more detailed. But in all of it, you could feel a sense of purpose and excitement in Gary's writing.
After years of official mutilation and Gary's (understandable) lack of interest, it just doesn't interest me as an active setting like it used to.

Your placement of Yggsburgh is pretty standard, I think Gary has suggested it himself, but it really doesn't fin in with the character of the free city, or the greater East Mark material.

[ghul]

Sure it fits! Remember, the 30-mile hexes on the Darlene map indicate the most dominant terrain, not the total terrain, so when you see a plains hex, it doesn't mean there are not any woodlands or wetlands in that area. Also, the swamps to the east of the Eery and Neen which sit at the foot of the Cairn Hills would match nicely with the Great Leech Marsh on the East Mark Map, as that swamp is supposed to extend another 75 square miles. And Yggsburgh, IMO, fits in nicely as a "little brother" of the Free City, with political and economic ties with GH City and Hardby as well. It's all in how you wish to build your campaign.

I take Gary and Rob's "From the Sorcerers Scroll" articles with a grain of salt -- excellent inspirational material, but not necessarily as I would shape my home GH campaign.

Yeah, who can blame Gary's disinterest after past events separated by 2 decades.