Scroll Caster Level

[Scott]

According to the rules, spell casters generally take the quick and easy route when it comes to scroll scribing, so the caster level is one level higher than the minimum required to cast the spell. A fireball scribed by an 18th level arch-mage would be a 6 HD fireball. I guess we could use the standard scroll scribing rules for these default scrolls. What additional charge would you assess a caster for a higher than the default caster level?

[geneweigel]

+5% of the xp value

[Scott]

What I mean is would it take longer or cost more to scribe a scroll above the default caster level.

[geneweigel]

During the creation, I would tack on an hour per level past the standard scroll form

(ex: a 3rd normally cast at 6th but instead cast at 12th would take 6 hours past the normal "3 days for 3 spell levels" making it 78 hours instead of 72 hours;

or a 9th normally cast at 19th but instead cast at 25th would take 6 hours past the regular "9 days for 9 spell levels" making it 222 hours instead of 216; etc. )

just to make it less "quick and easy" and still keep the options "playable"..

[grodog]

I normally determine the caster level for any given scroll, and presume that the spells cast upon the scroll are all at the caster level of the scroll's scriber. So, for me, the archmage's fireball scroll would be 18d6 not 6d6. I don't know of any mechanism to allow a caster to "tone down" his casting level, so scrolls created by higher-level casters would have higher values---both XP and GP, though moreso on the GP side.

[geneweigel]

I don't know of any mechanism to allow a caster to "tone down" his casting level,

Technically, you could cast a weaker spell but I've never seen anyone ask!



I once toyed with the idea of expanding spell power but it was a mess. Basically finding another version of the spell multiplied the effect. Surprisingly, nobody took to the idea so its just forgotten.

I'm going to rip apart spells at some point to add more pizzaz and perhaps make an article out of it.

[Scott]

grodog said:

I don't know of any mechanism to allow a caster to "tone down" his casting level

The text that inspired this thread states, "All scroll spells are assumed to be written so as to make it as easy and quick as possible for the writer. Thus, the level of the spell, its characteristics with respect to range, duration, area of effect, etc., where level is a factor, is typically but 1 level higher than that required to actually use the spell"

[grodog]

Oh, I understand that, Scott, it just never made any sense to me, that's all

[GRWelsh]

I always imagined an exponential increase in cost and time, but never worked out an exact formula. To use Scott's example, it is easiest and cheapest for the 18th level arch-mage to scribe a fireball scroll with a 6 hit die fireball. It's slightly more expensive and time-consuming to make a scroll with a 7, 8, or 9 HD fireball, but not prohibitively so. Above that, the cost starts to become high enough to be a deterrent.

Another factor is that a scroll scribed at a higher level has a higher chance of spell failure. A wizard scribing scrolls to sell or to give to his apprentices wouldn't want to make them harder to use, but easier -- you would think.

[geneweigel]

I always imagined an exponential increase in cost and time, but never worked out an exact formula. [SNIP]Above that, the cost starts to become high enough to be a deterrent.
Another factor is that a scroll scribed at a higher level has a higher chance of spell failure. A wizard scribing scrolls to sell or to give to his apprentices wouldn't want to make them harder to use, but easier -- you would think.

I probably wouldn't use a cash deterrent. I think the game has enough deterrents though and I hate adding to it because it does suck away the initiative for "new" imaginative play. Which is what I believe the game is all about. I would create four more categories of magic items rather than do one single new inhibiting deterrent to an old concept. Especially cash deterrents. Its demoralizing enough, right?

I think when characters get in over their heads with magic they know whats coming and it ain't a pile of unpaid bills...

[GRWelsh]

geneweigel said:

I probably wouldn't use a cash deterrent. I think the game has enough deterrents though and I hate adding to it because it does suck away the initiative for "new" imaginative play. Which is what I believe the game is all about. I would create four more categories of magic items rather than do one single new inhibiting deterrent to an old concept. Especially cash deterrents. Its demoralizing enough, right?

I think when characters get in over their heads with magic they know whats coming and it ain't a pile of unpaid bills...

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, but I think it depends on the style of the campaign. I dispense with the training rules, for example, and I think successful adventurers should acquire lots of (non-magical at least) treasure. By contrast, I've been a player in a campaign with the same DM for almost 25 years. He's a great DM, but about the stingiest I've ever seen with monetary treasure. Our characters are always impoverished and on the run. I prefer to have players be well-heeled by mid-level, and with options on what to squander their gold on -- such as spell research, scribing scrolls, brewing potions, buying a ship, whatever. As a fan of magic-users, I've always seen monetary treasure as primarily a means to create the spells and magic items desired but never found... or at least, to be able to attempt to create them...

Anyway, I think the idea of an exponential chart fits in well with the game as written. The XP charts increase exponentially. So do training costs. A lot of things in the game, by the book, are very expensive: getting NPC's to cast spells, hiring henchmen, asking a sage a question, etc. Players often have to decide between their greed and getting something else that's useful.

[Scott]

There has to be some kind of tangible deterrent, or else every caster would scribe every scroll at their caster level. In the real world, time would work, but in game, where down time can fly by, it generally isn’t. Cost is the prohibitive deterrent that works on a game level, but an exponential formula might get out of hand. Maybe something like 100 gp per spell level per caster level above the normal minimum would work.

[geneweigel]

I've been putting some outside the box thought into this. Just to be the devil's advocate, at the time of the design of scroll making requirements "megadungeons" were "dungeons" and it was a literal adventure supermarket for monster ingredients. If the campaign revolves around wandering to exotic locations then to adequately fulfill the DMG's chopped up menagerie scroll process then every league or so would have to be subsidized with innately magic-rich monsters for ingredients.

[Scott]

Maybe just figure out the highest level spell that could be cast at the caster level, and treat the scroll as that level, i.e. any scroll written with a caster level of 13 would use the cost and time requirements needed for a 6th level spell, etc.

[geneweigel]

I think stay simple to the book is the way to go because if the players can't follow at a glance then how are new players going to come off the street?

Its bad enough having to deal with all "The Editioned" types if somebody is going out of their way to "Stay Gygax" (apologies to THE OUTSIDERS movie from 1983 AND Robert Frost. ) then it should be with a positive tone as much as possible. I mean by today's rpg standard Gygax's gameplay would be considered the things that he warned against. From DMG page 92:

AD&D means to set right both extremes. Neither the giveaway game nor the certain death campaign will be lauded here.

I have characters with a cache of dead monster parts that were "not in the book" for magic item parts. Thats how into the game I was. Most of the latter day play that I was doing with the old campaign people had none of that but with the folks off the street I had given them a heads up about collecting monsters dead or alive. Lot good that did now that the Broken Castle campaign is long over!