Illustionist and thier magic.

[Axe Mental]

Anyone ever get the skinny on illusionist magic (esp. Phantasmal Force) as in, does it do real damage. My interp. is yes real damage. Gygax sent me something in the past that also suggested that it did real damage, but did not bother to give me any details. Here is what "the man" said:




Well, thanks, anbd very busy too.

I have a quick question. When you played the illusionist as a PC in 1E how did you handle damage? For instance did phantasmal force do real damage (say an illusion of falling on spikes), or did it do sub dual damage or some other kind of damage?

All illusory damage was at 100% as long as the character believed it, and at 0 HP the character died, but if the illusion were detected, then damage disappeared,!

Also, how did you determine the amount of damage taken with this spell? For instance would the illusion of falling on 6 spikes do the same damage as the illusion of falling on 30 spikes? Or would the damage done have more to do with the level of the caster (a first level illusionist doing 1d6 max, and a 8th level caster doing 8d6 max)?

Damage is based on the illusion's perceived threat to the character, so the matter is handled as if the attack or trap were real.

Gary!


our house rule was that 1d6 per level of the caster to all effected for Ph. Force, but Gygax doesn't do this. Also, our house rule was if a Phantasmal Force spell does real damage then it is over that turn, otherwise duration applies.

What are your thoughts on this Scotty G and others?

[Scott]

I don't really have hard and fast rules for illusions. I handle them on a case by case basis, but the damage can kill.
Scott

[dcas]

I don't think Phantasmal Force does real damage because Shadow Monsters, Demi-shadow Monsters, and Shades do (some) real damage and they are far more powerful spells. Someone who 'dies' as a result of a Phantasmal monster would actually be rendered unconscious.

[Falconer]

What about an Illusionist who uses the 1st-level spell Phantasmal Force to create a medusa that turns the PC's foes to stone (in their minds)--a simple and sudden dispatch of potentially very dangerous creatures or NPCs? Are there any "By The Book" restrictions to this spell? Or do I use common sense and say, for example, that the NPC who thinks he is turned to stone will get a saving throw every round (with more plusses to his roll every round) because logic will be screaming at him that he's not stone..?

Illusion is very tricky, and in the hands of a clever player, very powerful. The DM has to be equally clever to keep it in check. Regards.

[Scott]

The illusionary basilisk in the ToEE DOES petrify players.
Phantasmal Force has limitations, no sound, the spell caster needs to concentrate on it for it to be active or to keep it from being dispelled after being struck.
The spell description does say that PF can do damage. And EGG did say that they can kill; but it all depends on how the spell is used. I'd give a system shock roll any time death from illusional damage occured.
Scott

[Scott]

In my last post, I didn't mean that the illusion actually petrifies the PC, but because the PC believes he's petrified, he's in effect petrified.
Scott

[dcas]

Scott said:

In my last post, I didn't mean that the illusion actually petrifies the PC, but because the PC believes he's petrified, he's in effect petrified.

That would be my interpretation, too -- he would be paralyzed. I think he would 'snap out of it' if someone attacked him and hit for damage, however, or if an ally -- who disbelieved the illusion -- slapped him in the face.

[dcas]

Scott said:

The illusionary basilisk in the ToEE DOES petrify players.

That must be a pretty powerful monster -- most of the monsters in AD&D only affect the characters. ;D

[Scott]

Hardy har.
Scott

[Axe Mental]

Scotty G, I was wondering if you treat Phantasmal force like fire ball, were the dammage inflicted increases with the level of the caster, or if you treat it more like sleep were the level of the caster does not increase the number of H.D. effected (this is in regards to phantasmal force spell)

Axe-

[Scott]

If there was any reason for the character to think the fireball might be coming from a higher level spell caster, then I would increase the damage. Otherwise I would just pick an amount of dice the characters might suspect the spell caster would be. Problem with phantasmal fireballs is that they are silent, which would be a clue to their illusionary nature. I wouldn't have too many NPC illusionists casting PF fireballs because of this.
Scott

[Falconer]

Yeah, it was after my players took the tunnel to the 3rd level of the ToEE and fought that basilisk that they *really* started to get a lot of ideas for their Illusionist. I haven't had to deal with it lately, because that Illusionist died pretty quickly (as is their wont). Regards.

[Axe Mental]

O.k. Fire ball was a bad example. What I'm trying to get at is this: In your games would a low level illusionist typically do less damage then a high level illusionist when casting a phantasmal Force spell of the same thing (and lets assume their experience of this thing is the same). The idea being that an experienced illusionist is better able to create real looking illusions then a low level illusionist due to experience and training.

Thanks,

Axe-

[mistere29]

Axe said:

O.k. Fire ball was a bad example. What I'm trying to get at is this: In your games would a low level illusionist typically do less damage then a high level illusionist when casting a phantasmal Force spell of the same thing (and lets assume their experience of this thing is the same). The idea being that an experienced illusionist is better able to create real looking illusions then a low level illusionist due to experience and training.

Thanks,



Axe-

I would see no reason to do anything different. it's just the way AD&D works.

[Scott]

Axe said:

O.k. Fire ball was a bad example. What I'm trying to get at is this: In your games would a low level illusionist typically do less damage then a high level illusionist when casting a phantasmal Force spell of the same thing (and lets assume their experience of this thing is the same). The idea being that an experienced illusionist is better able to create real looking illusions then a low level illusionist due to experience and training.

Thanks,

Axe-

Based on the spell's description, and all of the illusion spells I can think of off the top or my head, I can think of no reason why a higher level illusionist would automatically do more damage than a lower level illusionist casting the same spell.
Scott

[dcas]

Something just struck me about an illusory basilisk. If a PC doesn't know what a basilisk looks like, how can he believe that he is petrified by its gaze?

[Scott]

dcs said:

Something just struck me about an illusory basilisk. If a PC doesn't know what a basilisk looks like, how can he believe that he is petrified by its gaze?

I've wondered that myself, especially since the PCs involved probably started as new PCs in Hommlet, and this would be there first encounter with a basilisk. Maybe they're just common knowledge. I never saw one before, but by the time I was 10 years old, if I ever came across a tyrannosaurus rex, I would have known what it was.
Scott

[dcas]

Scott said:

Maybe they're just common knowledge. I never saw one before, but by the time I was 10 years old, if I ever came across a tyrannosaurus rex, I would have known what it was.

Of course -- but you probably had dinosaur picture books when you were growing up. I know I did (and of course we read books and saw movies on dinosaurs in school as part of the State's indoctrination of the evolution dogma). I suppose it's possible that a PC might encounter an illustrated book of fairy-tales or something like that in the course of his growing up or training. But if that's the case the DM ought to say: "you see a basilisk [or orc, or hobgoblin, or purple worm]" rather than describing the creature when encountered.

[Scott]

Well, as adventurers, the party are probably very aware of the dangers that they may encounter, and have had basilisks described in detail. They're not rare. It would be similar to someone in the late 1700s moving to a remote area on the western frontier of the country. That person may have never seen a bear, or cougar before, but based on warnings and descriptions, that person will probably know what he is seeing the first time he encounters one.
As far as saying basilisk, or a 7' long, six-legged lizard with glowing pale green eyes, or any creature vs. the creature's description, I try to base it on the familiarity the PCs may have with the creature. I try to keep the creature's frequency in mind. The rarer the creature is, the more likely I am to use a description rather than just say the creature's name the first time it is encountered.
Scott

[dcas]

Here's some thoughts I had while taking a short break from work this afternoon:

(1) When a character takes 'illusory' damage, it affects him as if he had taken real damage until his perception that he has been injured is corrected. He will 'see' wounds but characters who disbelieved the illusion that 'injured' him will not see them.

(2) A healing spell and rest does not heal actual damage -- the character hasn't taken any -- but he will believe that these are healing effects and his perception that he is injured will adjust accordingly.

(3) The character can also be healed by an 'illusory' healing spell, but only if he fails his saving throw (he cannot deliberately fail the save). The character must be unaware that the spell is illusory; that is, the person casting the spell must be presented to him as a caster capable of casting such spells.

(4) Other spell effects (such as those that reveal illusions) might also correct the character's perception that he has been injured.