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Post by GRWelsh on May 27, 2021 7:43:57 GMT -5
Are Hochoch and Hocholve just two different names for the same place? On the Darlene map, the name is Hochoch, but in S3 there is a reference to the Lord of High Olvendom at Hocholve who is presumably a vassal or ally of the Grand Duke at Gorna, Owen III. I was thinking the simplest and most logical explanation is that they are the same place but due to editing/version control we ended up with two different spellings. However, since we have these two sources from EGG, why not make the most of it and develop them into two different places?
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Post by geneweigel on May 27, 2021 9:54:28 GMT -5
I had something written down about this but still waiting to unpack the office (next Tuesday, movers are muscling the heavy furniture to my office.). It's a blur trying to recall.
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Post by GRWelsh on May 27, 2021 12:20:15 GMT -5
For my game, I stole a map of Hochoch that I found online. It was a nice, isometric map from late era DRAGON Magazine. I don't really care about the description or any post-Gygax era details, just the cool artwork. I like this region as it feels like an out of the way wilderness of forests and mountains... I can put anything I want up there.
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Post by Scott on May 27, 2021 16:43:18 GMT -5
I think the general consensus is that Hochoch and Hocholve are the same place, but that would greatly influence the nature of the place. I think I prefer two separate places. Hochoch being more human-centric, and then Hocholve being the seat of power for the elves of the Dim Forest and the Oytwood.
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Post by grodog on May 31, 2021 12:38:01 GMT -5
There's not lots and lots of references to either one, but there are definitely a few more to Hochoch vs. to Hocholve:
Hochoch (Pop 5,500) City/Town/Village Against The Giants - The Liberation of Geoff 5, 6, 44 Hochoch (Pop 5,500) City/Town/Village From the Ashes: Reference Card #03 Hochoch (Pop 5,500) City/Town/Village Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins 35 Hochoch (Pop 5,500) (591 CY) (Town) City/Town/Village Living Greyhawk Gazetteer 48, 49, 51, 141, 152, 160 Hochoch (Pop 5,500) City/Town/Village Living Greyhawk Journal #1 13, 28, 33 Hochoch (Pop 5,500) City/Town/Village Living Greyhawk Journal #2 28 Hochoch (Pop 5,500) City/Town/Village Living Greyhawk Journal #3 27 Hochoch (Pop 5,500) City/Town/Village Living Greyhawk Journal #4 28 Hochoch (Pop 5,500) City/Town/Village Living Greyhawk Journal #5 28 Hochoch (Pop 5,500) City/Town/Village N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God Inside Front Cover, 2, 3, 5, 20, 28 Hochoch (Pop 5,500) City/Town/Village Sword and Fist, D&D 3e 47 Hochoch (Pop 5,500) City/Town/Village WGA4 Vecna Lives! 48 Hochoch (Pop 5,500) City/Town/Village World of Greyhawk Boxed Set: A Guide to The World of Greyhawk 55 Hochoch (Pop 5,500) City/Town/Village World of Greyhawk Boxed Set: Glossography Inside Back Cover
vs.
High Lord of Elvendom (Hocholve) Position Expedition to the Barrier Peaks: Original Adventures Reincarnated #03, D&D 5e 24, 100, 174 High Lord of Elvendom (Hocholve) Position S1-4 Realms of Horror, Adventure Booklet 43 High Lord of Elvendom (Hocholve) Position S3 Expedition To The Barrier Peaks, Adventure Booklet 2 Hocholve City/Town/Village Against The Giants - The Liberation of Geoff 1, 44, 50, 51 Hocholve City/Town/Village Expedition to the Barrier Peaks: Original Adventures Reincarnated #03, D&D 5e 24, 100, 174 Hocholve (Pop 0) (591 CY) City/Town/Village Living Greyhawk Gazetteer 48, 127, 128 Hocholve City/Town/Village S1-4 Realms of Horror, Adventure Booklet 43 Hocholve City/Town/Village S3 Expedition To The Barrier Peaks, Adventure Booklet 2
Allan.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 1, 2021 8:18:42 GMT -5
Thanks for that reference, Allan. It looks like it was in AGAINST THE GIANTS: THE LIBERATION OF GEOFF (1999) by Sean Reynolds that it was made 'official' by TSR that Hochoch and Hocholve are two distinct places. I take all post-Gygax sources with a grain of salt, but in this case I'm inclined to agree to make them two different places. I forgot that I owned THE LIBERATION OF GEOFF and just dug it out from the Silver Anniversary boxed set to look through it again. The 'new' material from that time (almost another 25 years holy crap) mostly shows Geoff overrun by various sorts of giants and monsters with the player characters in the role of not only invading their lairs but driving them out of towns. Hochoch isn't detailed, but Hocholve is described as an abandoned elvish fort on the Javan River. My campaign is set pre-Wars, with threats but not with Geoff overrun, and it all may play out differently in my version, so I'm not sure that there is much in this book that I'll use. But I like Scott's idea to make Hochoch a humanocentric town and Hocholve as the seat of the Lord of High Olvendom as referred to in S3, perhaps a Rivendell-like place or elvish castle, concealed by an illusion, overlooking the Javan River.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 2, 2021 7:25:28 GMT -5
Reading through it again, THE LIBERATION OF GEOFF is a sequel to the G series. NPCs from G1-3 AGAINST THE GIANTS appear in this. Gleep Wurp "the Eyebiter" is referred to as "a veteran of the heroic adventuring group that defeated a major giant incursion years ago" (p. 89), and the wizard Faffle is referred to as "a member of the mercenary-adventurer group who had years before defeated defeated an earlier giant incursion... [He is] in town [Derelion, in the Dim Forest] to court the sister of his former associate, Fonkin Hoddypeak" (p. 46). Flerd Trantle is described as being a priest of Pholtus and "a lean, gray haired man, Flerd is an experienced adventurer, part of the band who defeated the last giant invasion years ago and a friend of Faffle (see Derelion), Fonkin (see Derelion) and Gleep the Eyebiter (see Cloud Islands of the Sakhut)" (p. 77). The inclusion of these NPCs here somewhat undermines their assumed success in the G series. I notice that Sean retained the typographical error of Gleep from the original Gleed, but we know it should have been Gleed since that is what is in POPLOLLIES AND BELLIBONES which was EGG's source for these humorously archaic NPC names, and he even reused the name Gleed for an evil elf character in his Gord books -- seemingly unrelated to the G1-3 NPC. THE LIBERATION OF GEOFF comes across as a grim, apocalyptic setting based on what it would be like if the giants won and totally devastated one of the palatine states of the Flanaess. The scenario is logically based on EGG's description of Geoff in the Guide (p. 22), but I prefer for players to have a chance to prevent such an event rather than dealing with the tragic aftermath.
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Post by Scott on Jun 2, 2021 8:14:24 GMT -5
I was not a fan of the Liberation of Geoff. There is a lot of Greyhawk stuff that was too derivative of earlier stuff that seems to use ties to older stuff as a crutch. I would have rather just seen quality, new material with completely new story lines. The old stuff is still being recycled. Liberation is kind of the worst of recycling old material and adding new stuff. It uses the Giant series as its core, but throws in some fundamental changes that just clash and disregard with so much that should have been established.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 2, 2021 8:45:21 GMT -5
I agree. THE LIBERATION OF GEOFF is set chronologically after the G series, but other than involving giants and being set geographically close by, it really doesn't continue the G series other than thematically. That made it an odd choice to reprint the G series with THE LIBERATION OF GEOFF. The direct sequel to the G series is the D series, and even the text in THE LIBERATION OF GEOFF refers to that all happening "years ago." So, what is the intention here? Also, if you DMed the G series with original player characters the names of Gleep, Faffle, Fonkin and Flerd wouldn't mean anything as they weren't the heroic adventuring group who defeated the giants in the past -- your players were! So, those NPCs end up merely being Easter Eggs for old players who owned G1-3 back in the day.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 7, 2021 12:30:00 GMT -5
Okay, I found my "note". Its not really a note but there was a League of Hochberg in the THE CHRONICLES OF THE LEJENDARY EARTH GAZETEER (2001). Although they were pretty cheap on the maps and town locations are not shown, there is detail that says "Primarily human, but with small minorities of Alfar peoples." (As an aside, I really hate to keep bashing the Lejendary franchise but something odd was up with that and I'm not just talking atmosphere. The people involved seemed aggressive and weird.)
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 7, 2021 15:22:42 GMT -5
Hochberg does not seem to be analogous to Hochoch based upon the maps and description, although I do like the idea of a league of city states and a margravate title rather than mayor. Sadly, I don't own any of the Lejendary Adventure material, so I can't comment on it. At this point, I'm so entrenched in AD&D and the World of Greyhawk circa 1979-1984 that I'm not really looking for another system or setting to make use of. But good ideas are always worth considering. I haven't done much with Hochoch other than describe it as a semi-independent city state in a no-man's land between the Grand Duchy of Geoff and the Gran March guarded by an order of knight protectors. I've decided to make Hocholve a separate place and an elf castle concealed by mists in the Dim Forest along the Javan River. Right now I'm focused on painting miniatures and terrain and preparing for Saturday's game set in the southern edge of the Dim Forest... I even have some little trees to put together!
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 24, 2021 13:15:26 GMT -5
Any preference for how Hochoch should be pronounced? Hock-ock? Hock-oak? Hoek-ek? Something else?
I've been saying it like Hock-oak and my players have been pronouncing it Hock-ock so I told them it is pronounced differently by regional dialects.
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Post by Scott on Jun 24, 2021 15:22:08 GMT -5
To me the spelling implies Hock ock, or maybe Hoch och, two short Os, but I say HOCH with a long o - och with a short o.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 25, 2021 10:30:56 GMT -5
Have you guys ever DMed or played in this region of the Flanaess? Ever done anything with the Dim Forest? S3 is set nearby to the west in the Barrier Peaks but that is for levels 8-12 -- a future possibility. N1 is set nearby to the east, and is a low level adventure, so that is a current possibility. My initial idea was to run a campaign based upon DRAGON Magazine modules, but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of doing original stuff to develop the region inspired by some other sources occasionally. The Dim Forest seems like an opportunity not to miss since they're on the edge of it and I have all of these model trees ready to go. Another idea is to do something with the Valley of the Mage, since it is close by, and work in EGG's version with the Demiurge Basiliv, Bardillingham, etc. Has anyone ever done anything with that in their campaign? I just had a vague idea of someone wanting to steal the power of the Demiurge, or do away with him... Perhaps the witches of WITCHES COURT MARSHES located in the Rushmoors. That could be a back story developing behind the scenes.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 25, 2021 11:06:21 GMT -5
One of my characters (A dwarf) had a stronghold in Geoff that started as a random roll for place of origin but as a DM most countries were used and the random charts referred to so as to get a feel. Specifically the "Rushmoors" had no charts but from the description of it being nasty it was used as open dungeon with random castles and caves making it a "no elf zone".
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 25, 2021 15:06:23 GMT -5
I envision the Rushmoors as a nasty, nearly impassible region and most of the Dim Forest as similar to Mirkwood making Hochoch a no-man's land. For campaigns I like these regions that are wilderness or border wilderness. There are some random monster charts for the Rushmoors and Dim Forest in N1, but they are nothing special. I've been pre-generating some encounters based on the Glossography and DMG random encounter tables.
I never really paid attention to the location of S3 before on the Darlene Map. It is 3 hexes south of the first 'R' in Barrier Peaks, which is right in the middle of the mountain range. I always thought it was closer to the edge of the mountain range along the Grand Duchy of Geoff, but it is actually much further in. Also, since is it is 4 hexes (120 miles) SW of the Valley of the Mage, I wonder if there was any intended connection? The Valley of the Mage "is positively known to be inhabited by horrible monsters" (Guide, p. 40). "These mountains [the Barrier Peaks] are infamous for their strange inhabitants" (Guide, p. 53). "The Grand Duchy of Geoff has recently been plagued by a rash of unusually weird and terrible monsters of unknown sort. This western area, particularly the mountain fastness which separates the Grand Duchy from the Dry Steppes, has long been renowned for the generation of the most fearsome beasts, and it has been shunned accordingly -- save for a handful of hardy souls with exceptional abilities and sufficient wealth to build stout strongholds to ward off the attacks of the predatory creatures infesting the rugged lands thereabout" (S3, p. 2).
Time to reread everything about these regions from the Gord novels!
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 25, 2021 16:26:06 GMT -5
I think the novels just gloss over the Geoff area and cuts straight to the Valley of the Mage. In SEA OF DEATH (1987), Gary mentions the "Chaban River" on page 62 as the location of "Bardillingham" being located at the headwater. "Chaban River" is also on the included map and its the Javan River.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 25, 2021 18:11:14 GMT -5
I just found an interesting tidbit from SEA OF DEATH: "The armlet you wear, Gord of Greyhawk, was forged long and long ago by the smiths of Grotheim. It bestows the strength of our folk upon you in certain ways" (p. 71). A dwarf captain said this to Gord after escorting him over the Barring Range/Barrier Peaks to the Briartangle Woodland/Bramblewood Forest. Grotheim? Legendary hall of dwarfdom somewhere in the Barrier Peaks or Crystalmist Mountains? Lost and ruined -- a place for a future adventure?
This seems like a coincidence since recently I created some dwarf-forged magic weapons, shields and armor that gave bonuses to strength or added hit points for my online game.
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Post by GRWelsh on Sept 19, 2021 13:52:24 GMT -5
We played last night and the party returned to their home town of Hochoch. They delivered the magic spear Alkarg to the keeping of the Temple of Pelor. It was mostly role-playing in town, which was a nice change of pace. Part of their homework for the game was to come up with a friend, relative and enemy/rival for their characters, to help flesh out the town and their backgrounds. Randy's paladin paid for a remove curse to get rid of his magic sword that caused him hallucinations. Cindy's magic-user finally leveled up and she learned detect magic and find familiar. Outside the town walls, she cast find familiar with a casting time of 23 hours while the rest of the party stood guard... Finally, the next morning at dawn a dark shape flew down to her... It was a crow. Cindy's character read about the legend of the Toadwarts school of magic (groan!) located in the Oytwood, which sets up our next game!
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 12, 2022 8:37:30 GMT -5
Last Saturday's game was again in the town of Hochoch. After several sessions exploring the Toadwarts School of Magic, they now had some downtime to rest, divide loot, learn spells, level up, etc. The game started with them crossing the Javan River to get back to the Mid Wold. Again, they stayed overnight at the Guard Tower. A random roll determined there was a terrible summer storm that blew in. An encounter roll determined that they heard shrieking in the air above the sound of the wind and thunder. Peering outside and looking up, they saw a fire moving across the sky... When the lightning flashed, they could see the fire was coming from the mouth and hooves of a black animal, and on its back, a rider wearing tatters. It passed overhead from northeast to southwest. "Was that a nightmare?" Mark asked, but his dwarf Krak failed an intelligence check so he wasn't sure. By morning the storm had passed, and the characters assisted the guards with some repairs to the outpost from damage done by the wind... Thatch blown off roofs, things knocked over, etc. Later that day, they took the road north and made it back to the walled town of Hochoch without further encounter. They entered the gates where they saw the usual guards and beggars, and Dain the cleric of Pelor gave out silver coins to the poor. "Praise Pholtus!" one of the beggars said. "Give that silver coin back!" Dain snapped. "I mean Praise Pelor! I convert!" replied the beggar. Inside the town, Tory Brewster the magic-user and Laetrix the elf went to the house of Tory's mentor, the local witchy-woman (6th level magic-user) Sharra, known for collecting herbs and crystals, deciphering languages and locating lost objects. Tory and Laetrix set to reading the books they'd recovered from the School of Magic, starting with the travelling spell book they'd recovered -- it contained the spells: dancing lights, jump, armor, hold portal, rope trick and strength. Tory failed to learn the 2nd level spells. Sharra said, "I can teach you a 2nd level spell... it's around here somewhere, let's see if I can find it!" She finally found the locate object spell, and Tory successfully learned it. Meanwhile, Aeray visited his family, his church of St Cuthbert, and the castle where he'd once served as guard. At the castle, he got some practice jousting against a superior knight. The knights told him of increasing orc and goblin activity in the Dim Forest to the north. Krak and Balul visited the mountain dwarves who had a small enclave near the town smiths and the stonemason's guild, where they were helping improve the town's defenses. A bit later while travelling across town, Balul was the victim of a pickpocket who stole the rabbit's foot on the silver chain he'd found while exploring Toadwarts. Dain, at the Temple of Pelor, was greeted by the acolytes and lay brothers who all wanted to hear about his adventures. The temple patriarch, Asmath (a rival of Dain), gave him a hard time and asked him once again about what they should do about the magic spear, Alkarg. "You should pray to Pelor on that!" Dain quipped. Later, while returning to his room in the temple, Dain looked up and saw himself! "Halt! Who are you?" Dain asked. "I'm you!" the double replied. Dain tried to cast a hold person spell but it had no effect. The other attacked with footman's mace. For the next several rounds, the two swung maces at each other, each scoring a few hits, while Dain called out: "Alarm! Intruder!" As the acolytes and temple guards could be heard coming, Dain's double said, "Curse Pelor! This is taking too long!" and turned to run. The shocked temple guards saw Dain running from Dain, and didn't know what to do. "Stop him! He's an imposter!" Dain shouted. But in the confusion, the double was able to slip out a window and get away.
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