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Post by Scott on Dec 9, 2007 13:55:29 GMT -5
I've been ponding this mystery again lately. I feel my earlier idea of Iuz being around 500 years old doesn't seem old enough, based on the quotes mentioned above. He is referred to at one point as the Ancient One. To me, that means he could have been around for 1,000 years or more. I imagine him being there prior to the migrations; maybe not too much earlier, but already controlling a region when those coming from the west arrived. Based on his racial origin, it appears that Iuz rose to power in a Flan culture. If we assume Iggwilv's young form was her true form, then she was most likely Oeridian or Suel. One possibility is that she was a part of one of the ealiest migrating bands and was taken in by a Flan tribe located in the region of the current Land of Iuz. Perhaps she seduced the chief. Iuz was born and made the heir. This timeline reflects this possibility: -474 Iggwilv born. -447 Iggwilv migrates to the Flanaess -440 Iuz born. -420 Iuz starts building kingdom. 425 Iggwilv discovers the Lost Cavern of Tsojcanth. 441 Ghorkai the dragon born. 479 Might of Iuz grows, humanoid invasions become common. 485 Iggwilv conquers Perrenland. 495 Graz’zt breaks free. Iggwilv’s realm collapses. Iggwilv disappears. 500 Iuz and Zuggtmoy conceive the Temple of Elemental Evil plan and create the Orb of Golden Death. Iuz imprisoned. Zuggtmoy does not know location of Orb. 565 Zuggtmoy finds Orb of Golden Death and moves ahead with Temple of Elemental Evil without Iuz. 569 Battle of Emridy Meadows – Hoarde of Elemental Evil Scattered. 570 Iuz released from his prison in the dungeons below the ruins of Greyhawk Castle. 579 Second rise of the Temple of Elemental Evil. 581 Iggwilv freed from Abyss. 583 Robilar delivers evil Orb of Might to temple of Zuggtmoy. 585 Crook of Rao retrieved from the Isle of the Ape.
It's also possible that Iuz is older still. This scenario just ties to tie together the likely racial origins of Iggwilv and Iuz.
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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 9, 2007 15:24:57 GMT -5
I also prefer an older Iuz -- I usually imagine him to be between 500-1000 years old, with no one really knowing for sure. He might have been known as a kind of roving bogeyman -- an eldritch cambion assassin -- prior to starting to build his own kingdom, thus the "Old Iuz of fearbabe talk." It would make sense that Iuz was imprisoned prior to 513 CY, since that is the date of the rise of the Horned Society.
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Post by Merkholz on Jan 22, 2008 13:30:28 GMT -5
I'm having a hard time seeing Iuz being that old since he only came to power in 476 CY. How long could a spiteful CE demonling trudge along towards power without screwing up big-time. Look at Gary's portrayal of Iuz and imagine how many mistakes and enemies Iuz would make in 10 centuries! IMO Iuz shouldn´t be more than 200-400 years old. Considering the average lifetime of a commoner in the Flanaess that would be pretty ancient!
M
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Post by Scott on Jan 23, 2008 7:39:54 GMT -5
The text doesn’t state that he came to power in 476 cy. The entry for 479 cy states, “Might of Iuz grows”. His kingdom could have been there for much longer; it just wasn’t as threatening. My thinking is that any of the gods with an F as a racial indicator had to be around from the era when the Flan actually had a culture, which would be pre-migrations. I can see the first bands of refugees from the west stumbling upon an already existent Iuz’s kingdom. He might not have been a demi-god yet. I think the shift from quasi deity to demi-god would take many centuries. The fact that he was of, at least, quasi-deity level can explain why he was never completely defeated, and his incompetence can explain why he could never really get it together. Around 479 cy something happens, maybe he reaches demi-god level, maybe Iggwilv starts aiding him, but suddenly he starts becoming a real power. The retrofitting method in which much of the Iuz material was cobbled together certainly doesn’t help much. Because the different pieces weren’t initially conceived to be related, sometimes the timelines don’t fit when you try to put them together. The tie-in with the Iggwilv material is particularly vexing, not so much to explain what Iuz was doing, but to explain what Iggwilv was doing. Maybe she was lost, or imprisoned more than once.
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Post by Merkholz on Jan 24, 2008 4:39:11 GMT -5
Well, since it's pretty obvious that the might of Iuz more or less grew from the day he was born I'd like to think that the entry in the timeline indicating that Iuz' might has grown should be of a cosiderable amount - either the foundation of the Lands of Iuz under his rule or his move up to demi-god status. I do think that the might of Iuz should be a lot less before 476 CY or the entry makes no sense at all.
Regarding the racial F classification I find it to be reasonable that the northern wilderness would be less likely to have Suel or Oeridian descendents among the contemporary "citizens". The residents would be more likely to be pure Flan among the commoners and pure Oeridian among the ruling class. Therefore I don't think it's necessary to have Iuz around before the migrations because of that F.
M
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 24, 2008 21:27:13 GMT -5
1979 Rise of the white disco suit; "Boogie Wonderland" first reported.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Jan 25, 2008 18:26:32 GMT -5
HEY!!!! Don't make fun of the "Last of the Red Hot '70s"!!!! I graduated high school that year! (Mutter! Mutter!! Sip Beer...) ^__^
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Jan 25, 2008 18:28:24 GMT -5
Anyhow... I know where Merk comes from (as y'all know... ) but I'm thinkin' maybe 500 years old now... I gotta work it into my timeline, though. Gary hates timelines, so he's no roadmap! HAR!!!
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Post by Merkholz on Jan 26, 2008 4:24:41 GMT -5
I agree, it probably never occurred to Gary to pinpoint Iuz' birth so all we can do is speculate and decide for ourselves in our own campaigns. I think, however, we can all agree that Iuz at least was old in 476 CY!
M
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Post by Scott on Feb 11, 2009 21:21:39 GMT -5
I received my copy of Frank Mentzer's Empyrea setting. It includes his original notes tying it to Greyhawk. There are a few additional Greyhawk bits in there too, including the following comment regarding the Nine, "All were imprisoned for approximately 70 years."
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Post by Merkholz on Feb 12, 2009 3:07:26 GMT -5
Interesting. This approximately confirms the general consensus of post-Gygax timelines. I wonder if Mentzer has been inluenced by others or if he has been the influencer.
Another part about Iuz and his age - what about his daddy? If Orcus was his father (as originally intended?) it would be no problem having Iuz being a millenia old. With Graz'zt comes a totally different problem - if Iggwilv was locked in battle with Graz'zt at the end of the 5th century how long before did they have the breeding done? It seems a bit unfocused to stretch the Iggwilv and Grazz't over too long time.
Another point is that I'm a bit wary of looking at Iggwilv, though she is the Mother of Witches, as a super-being existing throughout the millenia. If Iuz is ancient (900+ years) then she must be at least a few centuries older and suddenly all the super-stars of the Flanaess appear to be of the same sort that the Forgotten Realms power-whores. I would prefer a little less rampant power-ups.
A final point is that since Gary probably never pinpointed the date of Iuz' birth there are likely several discrepancies regarding the Old One. That might be entirely proper for the boogeyman!
M
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Post by grodog on Feb 12, 2009 12:03:51 GMT -5
I received my copy of Frank Mentzer's Empyrea setting. It includes his original notes tying it to Greyhawk. There are a few additional Greyhawk bits in there too, including the following comment regarding the Nine, "All were imprisoned for approximately 70 years." Interesting. What other tidbits are in there, Scott?
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