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Post by GRWelsh on May 9, 2020 12:24:55 GMT -5
It's so hard to judge it from the outside. In every business, especially rapidly growing businesses, there are power struggles. Invariably, the losers in such struggles feel like they were treated unfairly. But you never hear the winners say, "Yeah, well, I had unfair advantages." Sometimes being aggressive and strict is what is needed to get results and that is often perceived as tyrannical. So there are always at least two sides in these stories. But screaming at someone in a meeting, humiliating them in public -- that's not cool no matter what the situation is. That's poor management. It may have worked to EGG's detriment that the company grew so quickly and was largely being run by gamers instead of professionals, and that he himself lacked executive leadership and management experience.
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Post by geneweigel on May 9, 2020 14:30:09 GMT -5
I honestly did not seek Rob out it's almost like he randomly sent me messages in response to my terrorizing the 3rd Edition News forum with my "final Gygax solution" ramblings. His initial dialogues were of chilling out which I had ignored. He later persisted after I had won his contest that as an employee I had to represent. So he had this thing where everything is strategy. I say (said) fuck all that fake shit. Honestly? Gary had bad strategies relying on proxies that had blandy trend styles that he would rearrange and rewrite to meet his standard in varying degrees. Rob, I believe, worked under that style with varying degrees of success. I think Arneson also worked by proxy. The only one that I can tell for working style is Gary because he was fierce with me. Rob for the little that I dealt with him was not fierce and not involved but a sense of proxy work. Arneson? All I've seen is his final product with the First Fantasy (and the follow up[ ])being the best of his work.
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Post by geneweigel on May 9, 2020 14:40:05 GMT -5
I'm cooked.
I meant before FIRST FANTASY CAMPAIGN by Judges Guild (1980) Arneson had ADVENTURES IN FANTASY ( 1979) which wasn't as bad as the basic Arneson for Lorraine Williams shit shows called "D&D". Those were terrible.
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Post by GRWelsh on May 9, 2020 16:34:35 GMT -5
So what happened in November 1972? Rob writes (p. 5):
In PLAYING AT THE WORLD, Jon Peterson writes (p. 71):
Jon's citations are given in the Bibliography: DR is THE DRAGON magazine and WG is WARGAMING, organ of Fantasy Games Unlimited, first issue 1977.
Michael Witwer also gives a 'dramatized version' in EMPIRE OF THE IMAGINATION (pp.91-95):
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Post by geneweigel on May 9, 2020 19:22:46 GMT -5
I honestly think that all 3 are wishful thinking. If you look at the game play pre-Arneson there is little for him to add. The men ratio is equalled out on the charts as literal point values equating experience. The progression was already in-game with CHAINMAIL switching hero to superhero then add the "power of the magic-user". Add to that the fantasy supplement can be played neutral, chaos or law with the mining being arranged by "a third party is necessary to act as judge of the various attempts at mining or counterming to prevent it". It's like all the nuances of "D" are already present it just has to be played in a dragged out session.
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Post by GRWelsh on May 10, 2020 8:31:51 GMT -5
This account quoted below is from an article written by David Kushner and published by WIRED magazine (3/10/2008) shortly after EGG's death, and can be read in full at this link: www.wired.com/2008/03/dungeon-master-life-legacy-gary-gygax/. This article was also the basis for the graphic novel RISE OF THE DUNGEON MASTER: GARY GYGAX AND THE CREATION OF D&D (2017).
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Post by GRWelsh on May 10, 2020 8:46:50 GMT -5
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Post by geneweigel on May 10, 2020 9:58:50 GMT -5
I think it's wishful thinking. The magical weapons were already portable in CHAINMAIL: " Magical Swords: Because these are almost entities in themselves, they accrue real advantage to the figure so armed."
There is even hints at treasure gradation off the charts:
"Ensorcelled arms are of two kinds, enchanted arrows and magical swords, although Odin's spear Thor's hammer are properly in the general category."
Here is another example of treasure acquisition:
"Treat Elves armed with Enchanted Arrows as Hero-types for purpose of missile fire against fantastic targets."
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Post by geneweigel on May 10, 2020 10:05:06 GMT -5
There is much ground covered by Gary in CHAINMAIL that there is little to do except give Arneson a chess finesse award for doing voices for the pieces.
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Post by Scott on May 10, 2020 12:04:01 GMT -5
I hate how Dave vs. Gary is such a big thing now. It's all opinion, or biased, or profiteering. I just want to hear the gaming stuff.
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Post by GRWelsh on May 10, 2020 13:01:35 GMT -5
I agree. I respect Rob for wanting to give credit to Dave for his conceptual breakthroughs and to correct the misunderstanding that Dave contributed very little to D&D. But it seems like an over-correction and also a misunderstanding to imply Dave invented the fantasy RPG and EGG essentially co-opted it and stole it from Dave. Neither of those extremes is supported by the evidence. At the end of the day, we have to consider that in 1974 both EGG and Dave were happy to have their names printed on the original D&D box as co-authors. EGG wrote, in the Forward:
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Post by geneweigel on May 10, 2020 16:30:15 GMT -5
I think an intelligent Blackmoor/Greyhawk project is definitely something to consider where a forensic cutting away into what exactly is Arneson's CHAINMAIL technique and add ons.
One thing that seems vague is the "World of Blackmoor" is it really a place? Or is it the CHAINMAIL shared map de-Greyhawked? And vise versa for WOG?
If I wish anything I wish that Arneson was onboard instead of whatever happened. I think Kuntz suffers from some form of "oppositional defiance disorder" where nothing reasonable regarding old days is good enough. And he is perfectly willing to go to his grave having some last word on the subject. What Rob can't grasp is there are people that are hostile towards original D&D that have zero to do with his relationships with Dave and Gary. He thinks he is fighting the good fight but he is surfing the waves of broken TSR sewage over and over. He needs to get behind Gary 200% then work on saving Dave. Otherwise it's just Forgotten Realms players in disguise justifying their gameplay with a Kuntz false flag.
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Post by GRWelsh on May 11, 2020 8:34:49 GMT -5
One thing that seems vague is the "World of Blackmoor" is it really a place? Or is it the CHAINMAIL shared map de-Greyhawked? And vise versa for WOG? My understanding is that Blackmoor started out as a town located on the northern marches of the "Great Kingdom" which was on an unnamed mythical world EGG created for the C&C Society. The C&C Society was formed by EGG and Rob in 1970, and included Jeff Perren and soon after Dave Arneson as well. The C&C Society had a focus on medieval warfare and had its own fanzine called The Domesday Book. Issue #1 was dated March 1, 1970. Issue #2 named EGG the Earl of Walworth. Issue #5 had the LGTSA Medieval Miniatures rules which would be expanded on to become CHAINMAIL. Issue #9 had the map of the Great Kingdom drawn by EGG which was used in the play-by-mail game. Just north of Nir Div is where Walworth was located. There is a slightly later and different version of this map circulating around on the internet, referred to as Dave Megarry's copy. Issue #13 had details on Blackmoor and a map of its environs, later reprinted in the FIRST FANTASY CAMPAIGN (1977) published by Judges Guild. What I'm not sure about is if Greyhawk was considered to be located on this C&C Society map, and even though EGG participated in this play-by-mail game maybe Greyhawk hadn't been invented yet. By late 1972, EGG was creating his Greyhawk Dungeon which he would consider to be on a continent that looked much like North America, on a parallel earth as described in "Secret of the Gnome Cache" story in THE DRAGON. When preparing the World of Greyhawk for initial publication in the Folio (1980), EGG obviously drew inspiration from the old "Great Kingdom" map when creating his map of the Flanaess, and placed both Greyhawk and Blackmoor on it, seemingly as a nod to the mythical world he created for the C&C Society campaign which is where Blackmoor originally was.
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Post by GRWelsh on May 11, 2020 14:10:52 GMT -5
Here's another interesting quote, from the Forward to D&D Supplement II: Blackmoor written by EGG and dated Sept. 1, 1975 (boldface added by me):
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 3, 2021 18:12:50 GMT -5
Last year in this thread I wrote: "I'd love to read a long essay devoted solely to that November 1972 gaming session." Well, it seems Rob has published a 15 page monograph on exactly that! So, thank you, Rob! It is titled "The Game That Changed Everything." I just ordered it from his TLB website and will post my impressions once I get it. www.tlbgames.com/collections/the-red-book-line/products/game-that-changed-everything-deluxeI'm writing in this thread rather than starting a new one because it is in this thread that I posted everything else I could find about that November 1972 gaming session, including Rob's own impression of it published in 1977.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 9, 2021 18:06:27 GMT -5
I finished the monograph and I'd say it had about 20% new information beyond what is already cited in this thread and elsewhere previously provided. However, I am happy to have a hard copy to commemorate this event, that rightfully deserves to be remembered as iconic. A few things that stood out to me were:
- Dave Megarry acted as the caller or intermediary between Dave Arneson/DM and the players. - The players could choose to be either heroes (fighters) or magic-users using pregenerated characters. - The adventure included town, dungeon and outdoor wilderness play. - EGG was a magic-user high enough level to be able to cast lightning bolt, and the others were all heroes. - Terry Kuntz's character was killed by the fireball from an enemy wizard. - The party encountered four balrogs and fought and slew them with the aid of lightning bolt. - Later they encountered at least eight balrogs, but avoided that encounter. - The next morning, EGG put Rob on the spot to replicate the previous night's adventure model by making something up with no preparation!*
*This was disappointing to them both, but Rob cannot be faulted for trying to recreate on the fly the dungeon mastering skills that Dave Arneson had been refining for nearly two years at that point.
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