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Post by geneweigel on Apr 12, 2019 15:27:42 GMT -5
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 13, 2019 2:39:39 GMT -5
I can’t shake the feeling that they are making up this trilogy as they go with no overall plan.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 13, 2019 8:25:36 GMT -5
A coincidentally successful staff peppered with associated cast...? Its a win. What are they thinking.
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Post by Scott on Apr 14, 2019 8:45:07 GMT -5
I think the directors had too much say in the story. J.j. Abrams started a bunch of threads in the Force Awakens. Rian Johnson apparently had a bunch of his own ideas and scrapped almost every story Abrams’ started, which created a terrible flow. Now we’re back to Abrams, and who knows where he’s going to go from the end of the Last Jedi.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 14, 2019 9:27:30 GMT -5
At this point, I'm so tired of the non-effort. They could take the plot from a 50's giant monster movie and give it STAR WARS themes and it would suck but probably be light years ahead of any crud they gin up with this pre-planned "vision" of what the SW universe is based on secondary schlock writing and assumptions of cookie cutter Hollywood themes in Star Wars drag.
We know if a stale to fresh visionary came on to these films then their vision would be sucked down so hard as to be incoherent (GODZILLA applied to ROGUE ONE)
Right now they have "Happy Hogan" working on a STAR WARS TV show for a Disney version of Netflix. I can easily see his efforts getting "IRON-MAN-THREED" so I don't think there is any "new hope" unless it dies off completely.
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 14, 2019 13:53:20 GMT -5
I have more hope for the STAR WARS side projects than the main saga. Though on the more childish side, I enjoyed both CLONE WARS animated TV shows. They felt more in tune with what I consider to be STAR WARS than anything else in the past 35 years. Even though they necessarily had to make use of prequel characters and lore, they did a good job of giving it some of the feeling of the original trilogy. I haven't seen REBELS yet, but I plan to check it out. ROGUE ONE felt like pretty good fan fiction, but the CGI was a distraction and it lacked a compelling protagonist or plot... Jyn Erso was just along for the ride and we knew how it was going to turn out. I enjoyed SOLO more than I expected, but it also felt like fan fiction and completely unnecessary -- but was entertaining for what it was. The problem with a lot of fan fiction is it recycles what we already know, and doesn't add anything new -- like an overgrown kid playing with his STAR WARS toys. THE MANDALORIAN could be decent since if they stick to the "Western in Space with a Lone Gunfighter" theme and expand on the universe in ways we haven't seen before.
The main saga feels ruined to me. I'm sure I'll see THE RISE OF SKYWALKER hoping for a miracle but Abrams is better at set ups than endings. And like Scott said, the radically different visions by the last two directors makes it feel self-contradictory and disjointed. I truly hope they don't bring the Emperor back as still alive or a clone or something like that, because it would completely undermine the achievement of the original trilogy. But having him show up for a cameo as a holocron recording, perhaps as part of Kylo Ren's search for a Sith artifact, would be acceptable.
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 17, 2019 8:25:21 GMT -5
POSSIBLE SPOILER (nothing major) ... I heard a theory that skywalker is going to become a title rather than simply a proper name, and that is the meaning behind THE RISE OF SKYWALKER -- it is going to be the name of a new order of Force-users that have a more nuanced view and takes into account Luke's criticism of the old Jedi order. If this is true, then Rey becomes the founder of a new order that refer to themselves as skywalkers. Some things this theory has going for it are that supposedly George Lucas himself once considered using skywalker as a title before settling on Jedi, and in Episode VIII Luke said "It is time for the Jedi to end," and in the new trailer Rey can be seen doing a Force Jump over the T.I.E. fighter which could be a visual representation of 'skywalking.' It would also fit a certain pattern in the naming conventions of the third film in each trilogy: REVENGE OF THE SITH, RETURN OF THE JEDI, THE RISE OF SKYWALKER -- if each is referring to an order of Force users. On the other hand, at the end of Episode VIII Luke says "... and I will not be the last Jedi" as if he realized he was wrong after talking to Yoda about it. So, who knows.
I wish Dave Filoni (CLONE WARS, REBELS, THE MANDALORIAN) had been put in charge of the main saga. That guy really seems to get STAR WARS. Clearly, there are talented people out there who love it and would have done a much better job with it. It just makes me sad since getting the original cast back together on screen one last time was a huge missed opportunity that is now gone forever. Episodes VII, VIII and IX could have been so great.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 17, 2019 9:23:22 GMT -5
I think SW was saluting something invisible to the mainstream theater goers but sort of known to sword and sorcery fans that became lost. An esoteric art form that fans knew. That said it stretched farther where I think all people looked at the first film like it was a universal art of some kind and that is what generated the need for endless sequels but because of the need for sequels it killed the art feel within the first two sequels.
So:
The first trilogy killed the art feel of the first film,
the second trilogy killed expectations of logical continuity (no explanation to how turning to the dark side of the force worked in first trilogy just autobrain dead conversion)
and the third trilogy is actively putting it to death.
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 17, 2019 9:52:53 GMT -5
Yeah, that's a pretty good summary. Even though Lucas could not write decent dialogue, the first STAR WARS movie was strongly rooted in the archetypes as outlined by Joseph Campbell: the monomyth, the Hero's Journey, and so on. So, it had universal appeal. Also, it was like capturing lightning in a bottle with highly artistic people working in sync: Ralph McQuarrie, Ben Burtt, John Williams, and let's not forget the editors! This was a fascinating video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFMyMxMYDNkTHE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK was a great sequel and not a step down in quality but a definite change in direction to family-based Greek tragedy and a 'royal blood' idea -- instead of being the peasant hero everyman Luke was now revealed to be a sort of lost prince. Some people thought STAR WARS was already ruined at this point, and I can see why. One of the few things I did like about THE LAST JEDI was that it seemed to recognize and pay homage to this original vision that anyone could be the hero and it doesn't matter who your parents are. Something else that was lost from the original STAR WARS is that back then using the Force wasn't like being a mutant born with superpowers -- it was a spiritual awakening anyone could have, like becoming enlightened with Zen, flowing with the Tao, and/or having faith in Christ ("Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you"). |
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Post by Scott on Apr 17, 2019 19:26:34 GMT -5
That is very Lucas, Skywalker being a title. Just like Darth became a title. I hated that too.
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 18, 2019 12:25:34 GMT -5
I remember my one cousin who was really into STAR WARS told me before the prequels some new character names were either announced or leaked: Darth Maul and Darth Sidious. I thought the idea of making Darth turn out to be a title rather than a proper name was a neat twist, at first, although I thought the name Sidious was rather silly -- it reminded me of Count Nefaria or Maleficent, and not too far from calling oneself Darth Badguy. And upon rewatching the first movie, I paid attention to the dialogue Obi-Wan and Darth Vader had when they duel:
"I've been waiting for you Obi-Wan. We meet again at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master."
"Only a master of evil, Darth."
"Your powers are weak, old man."
"You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
"You should not have come back."
It doesn't seem to fit that if they had this long history together and a master/apprentice relationship that Obi-Wan would call him by his Sith title rather than his personal name. The way Alec Guiness says it, it sounds like a personal first name.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 18, 2019 14:42:56 GMT -5
It doesn't seem to fit that if they had this long history together and a master/apprentice relationship that Obi-Wan would call him by his Sith title rather than his personal name. The way Alec Guiness says it, it sounds like a personal first name. VADER...!!! HELP..!!!! US FANS.....!!!! PLEEEEEASE....!!!! (Chorus moans rising. Turns to the fans begging on the floor then turns to George Lucas and Mickey Mouse shooting lightning out of their fingertips at the fans. Flings both of them down shaft.) FAST FORWARD>>> (Laying on the floor in Death Star hangar) "Fans... Take this mask off so I can... Look at you with my own eyes...." (Removes mask and its Ming the Merciless.)  |
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 19, 2019 14:35:25 GMT -5
In the latest politically correct Special Edition, the dialogue gets updated:
"I've been waiting for you Obi-Wan. We meet again at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master."
"Only a master of evil, Anakin."
"If you don't mind, I go by Darth Vader now. Or, Darth for short."
"Only a master of evil, Darth."
"Thanks for respecting my Sith thing and not 'deadnaming' me."
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 19, 2019 16:30:11 GMT -5
Heh, we've become so accustomed to this particular film being altered that it might just happen. Swapping out the dialogue, swapping out the casts, swapping out the plot, swapping out the politics, swapping out the genders, etc is most likely going to be the next big rage.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 3, 2021 9:20:30 GMT -5
I was bored yesterday so I watched Episode IX. To their credit, they did try to restore some dignity to the classic characters. But it was too little, too late, with this trilogy already being spoiled by lack of planning. It felt like a salvage job, going in the right direction -- but too late.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 17, 2021 9:19:39 GMT -5
So I watched and it was difficult to stay interested but I forced myself to pay attention. Whoever did that needs to go away now. I'm not blaming any of the cast even Hamill holds up. It is something else. What a shame.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 18, 2021 15:10:12 GMT -5
I agree, the cast wasn't the problem -- they were good. I blame Kathleen Kennedy since she was in charge. She should have insisted on one director contracted to do all three movies, and on knowing there the trilogy was going to end up before shooting began. J. J. Abrams was not the best choice since he likes to throw mystery out there without knowing the answers himself (e. g. LOST) -- but at least he is a STAR WARS fan. Rian Johnson is a good director with the right material (e. g. KNIVES OUT) but demonstrated he didn't get STAR WARS when he said pandering to the fans is a mistake, and had Luke throw his lightsaber away.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 18, 2021 17:00:50 GMT -5
The Yoda in the LAST JEDI was terrible. Not only did he remind me of "Minya" from Godzilla(Half expected him to say "pwaapwaa".) but the book burning scene was just an outright crime to our intelligence.
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