Amazon Tolkien Show

[geneweigel]

They added a Second Age Map here:

www.amazon.com/adlp/lotronprime

[GRWelsh]

Barad-Dûr and Mordor are not listed on the map so that could mean this series is set before SA 1600 which is when the One Ring is forged, Barad-Dûr is completed, and Sauron openly declares himself. Imladris isn't on the map but Ost-in-Edhil is, implying it is set prior to the Sack of Eregion and founding of Rivendell in 1697. Lond Daer is on the map, so it can't be set earlier than SA 750-800. Since they're teasing this with the poem about the rings, my guess it is it will start out just prior to or during the forging of the Rings of Power and the One Ring.

The order they released the maps in could also be significant -- most recent map seems to be set furthest in the past. So, I'm also guessing they are planning a series spanning a large span of time using Elves, Sauron and other long-lived characters to link the various seasons together.

[geneweigel]

I just saw this:

Not much to go by.

Howe (the artist) worked on THE HOBBIT trilogy

and the Tolkien Scholar Shippey has "special thanks" for the LOTR trilogy.

[GRWelsh]

I'm cautiously hopeful. With John Howe involved, the look of Middle Earth should be incredible and also consistent with the LOTR and THE HOBBIT trilogies -- my favorite aspect of those movies -- and with Tom Shippey involved there are no excuses to getting the lore wrong. I'm sure they'll have a good cast, and everything will look wonderful, so as usual it all comes down to the writers. Are they going to be able to pull off something that feels like a saga Tolkien wrote beginning in the Second Age, or are they going to morph it into something more GAME OF THRONES-flavored with all of its court intrigue, grittiness, lewdness and so on? If they stick close to Tolkien, my guess is they will use all of his writings they possibly can starting with "Aldarion and Erendis: the Mariner's Wife" and with some Elf characters added in to that tale, like Gil-Galad, Cirdan, Elrond, Celebrimbor and/or Galadriel, and that as we move forward in time the Elves will provide consistency in the way of the cast. Then we'll see a statue of King Aldarion. That might make for a decent prologue -- with viewers seeing it from the point of view of of Numenoreans 'returning' to the Middle Earth -- before moving on to the Forging of the Rings and the War of the Elves and Sauron. Such a prologue would also set up a 'call back' when the Numenoreans show up later to kick Sauron out of Eriador. My prediction is season 1 will conclude with the Forging of the Rings of Power, and a later season will conclude with the Numenoreans showing up to help in the War of the Elves and Sauron, and then maybe another later season ending with the Fall of Numenor and Sauron getting his revenge. So there will some back and forth, and perhaps finally the War of the Last Alliance, with Sauron being cast down and losing the One Ring.

I recently watched the documentary on Amazon Prime titled "Looking for the Hobbit" starring John Howe and featuring Tom Shippey. It is mostly about John Howe searching for the sources Tolkien drew upon when creating the Hobbits and other features of Middle Earth. It is pretty low key, with not much scholarly depth, but I recommend it if you like John Howe's art and want to enjoy some visuals and his travelogue.

[geneweigel]

Lets just hope it wasn't really: "SPECIAL THANKS TO TOM SHIPPEY FOR VALIDATING THE FOLLOWING: A BIGGER AND TOTALLY UNNECESSARY STORY BREAKING ROLE FOR ARWEN, REPLACING HOBBIT HARDY FRIENDSHIPS WITH CONTEMPORARY URGES, UNCHARACTERISTIC RACIAL JOKES, AND OF COURSE ACROBATIC SURF ELVES."

[GRWelsh]

My biggest fear is that they will introduce a hobbit character into the Second Age storyline and make him (or her!) integral to the defeat of Sauron. Tom Shippey and others with the slightest bit of Tolkien lore should immediately shoot that down, but the idea seems obvious and obviously wrong at the same time.

I'll admit, I would be terrified to be a writer on this show because I know there are millions of fans out there just like me who are -- if not not anxious to rip it apart -- difficult to please with any adaptation whatsoever.

Good news -- I just read that the Tolkien Estate does have veto power for the show, and the First and Third Ages are off-limits:

bgr.com/2019/07/31/amazon-the-lord-of-the-rings-season-1-release-date-plot-and-episodes/

[GRWelsh]

I saw the trailer for THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RINGS OF POWER and although it looks beautiful, it feels very off track. I'm not just talking about the imposed diversity. The portrayal of Galadriel as a brash warrior princess and Elrond as an ambitious young elf politician in the Vanity Fair article tells me the show runners are clueless. I'm afraid this thing is going to go down about as well as THE LAST JEDI. I've been trying to keep my expectations low, but it makes me angry that they can't even get basic things right. If I had to write a prequel to THE LORD OF THE RINGS set in the Second Age, I'd (1) stay as close to the source material as possible, and (2) send out my drafts to Tolkien scholars and hardcore fans like Corey Olsen, the Prancing Pony podcast, online friends, etc. with an NDA and a promise to give them a writing credit if they would fact-check me and offer suggestions. I would be absolutely rigorous in self-criticism shooting down my own ideas any time they would conflict with Tolkien's original vision. I would make staying true to the feel of the world as Tolkien portrayed it the priority.

As far as the diversity goes, I'm liberal and in favor of more diversity, but it has to be appropriate to the setting and the story, otherwise it is jarring. One could easily include actors of color by creating characters from Harad, Khand, Rhun, etc. But to have a black African looking dwarf and elf doesn't look right... It looks like someone checking diversity boxes similar to having black Africans in the MCU's Asgard (which makes about as much sense as having white or Asian actors play Wakandans...). It isn't even needed, since Tolkien's works (intended to create an "English mythology") already resonate with people of all colors and cultures.

[geneweigel]

I will give it a chance and if it stinks it stinks. Right? What else can you do? That last HOBBIT trilogy film ruined any expectations at this point. I think we are Tolkien fans so we have to accept it for processing. On some level, I think Tolkien might have adapted to modern politeness over art but who knows?

In contrast, THE ETERNALS just cast/portrayed a popular (At least more than all the Eternals) and vivacious female movie star type character into a pretty enough but ultimately uncharismatic bookworm because it would not be PC to make her "bimbo-ish" like Sersi in the comic. I feel like we all lost on that feel (I loved Sersi's run in the Avenger's comic but this does not seem like the enjoyable character at all.) and it would've been so easy as the character seemed tailor-made for Hollywood. So, lets see if they can dodge that bullet.

[geneweigel]

I saw some more promotions and I'm going to walk back what I said about giving this a chance. There is only so much that I can stomach but PC to the point where its conflating real ethnic traits with folklore monstrosities? Its going off the deep end. This is going to be derided in the future as being negative possibly torching the whole phenomena. What a shame.

[GRWelsh]

Yes, it is a shame because they could have easily been inclusive without violating the lore. They could have easily included a racially diverse cast by creating characters in the far south or east where the Numenoreans were said to sail. No one would have had a problem with that, as we expect men of Harad, Khand, the Dark Land and the Hither Lands to look different. Now, that being said, I can overlook racially inappropriate casting if the writing is good. Old Hollywood absurdly cast a lot of white actors as Asian characters, but if the writing and directing was good enough I could overlook it. The same applies here. I'm just not expecting it. I'm actually more concerned with changes to canonical characters like Galadriel and Elrond. To me the big litmus test is if the writers are respectful and true to what has been established, or change it for their own purposes. If they change Galadriel, Elrond and established Arda lore significantly that will make me wonder... Why not just create your own original fantasy world? This is why I'm ready to boil over.

[geneweigel]

I thought the Bilbo casting for the somewhat-off-looking-but-enough-looks-for-a-romcom-Englishman-of-the-minute was their first mistake among others. Now they're trying to make that look like the high mark. So what will be next? A remake of the Fellowship with the bridge of Khazad-Dum confrontation being a sex scene? The Jackson style Middle Earth is just gone at this point. In my mind, Bakshi has been relionized as the pinnacle mainstream Tolkienist going forward. Which is weird.

[GRWelsh]

I saw the Rankin Bass animated specials for THE HOBBIT and THE RETURN OF THE KING before reading the books so they are somewhat indelible in my mind for the look of of Middle Earth. I know they have inaccuracies, such as with the goblins being monster like, elves being somewhat ugly and Smaug being cat-like. But they really captured a certain magic. John Huston is still my favorite Gandalf, and Orson Bean is still my favorite Bilbo. The frog-like, monstrous Gollum voiced by Brother Theodore is still my favorite version because I feel like it is closer to the original version of THE HOBBIT when Tolkien himself still wasn't sure what Gollum was.

I didn't watch the Bakshi version until years later, and didn't like it at first (wasn't a fan of the rotoscoping animation), but I've come to appreciate it as a superior adaptation. And obviously it was a huge influence on the Jackson version (such as the scene with the Ringwraiths in the Prancing Pony which wasn't in the books).

The Jackson version started great and gradually diminished with each movie (not unlike the Elves of Middle Earth through the Ages)... The cast was excellent all around, as were the horror elements... It's just too bad they took the action into increasingly absurd non-Book related directions.

An adaptation doesn't have to be perfect, but it does have to capture the spirit of Middle Earth.

[geneweigel]

I agree with all your takes on Rankin Bass. I especially like the music.

[maximus]

Everything I've heard so far is bad. They're more concerned about checking boxes. This will be much more of a bad fan fiction production than true to Tolkien.

I too loved the Rankin Bass specials. I thought the way the goblins and Smaug were portrayed fit with what my 11 year old imagination at the time told me. The elves, not so much.

[geneweigel]

The Fellowship of the Mary Sues...

Annatar (Quasi-evil obviously ethnic quasi-villain): "No man can kill me!"

The New Fellowship: "We are all inclusively no man!"

Annatar (Quasi-evil obviously ethnic quasi-villain): "I can't be part of this island sinking. I'm out...Wait, I have a parting "gift" for you, fellows, I mean, uhm gals, err, or, um, folks..? No? Hmmm... PEOPLES!!! I have a gift for you peoples. Did anyone notice that there is nothing Hollywood exceptional about King Ar-Pharazon. Get him!"

[GRWelsh]

I was listening to the PRANCING PONY podcast last weekend and their guest was a guy from THEONERING.NET named Clifford "Quickbeam2000" and he made a lot of good points about the upcoming show. He said his concerns were more than skin deep and what is most important for the show runners to get right is the metaphysics of Middle Earth, i.e. the spiritual aspects and abstract concepts. For example, the difference in the fates between Elves and Men is a recurring theme that gets exploited by Sauron. I'm afraid if they compress the timeline too much they won't be able to emphasize how the Men age and die off and question why they can't live on like the Elves. The flaws within the Free Peoples of Middle Earth are always their worst enemies.

[grodog]

Based on the interview with the two show runners at our Amazon all-hands meeting last week, they seem like total geeks who are focused on the details.

I haven’t really paid any attention to the show to date, but they sounded sufficiently competent that I may check it out.

Allan.

[GRWelsh]

THE RINGS OF POWER premieres next week and I was trying to decide whether to get Amazon Prime again to watch it. All of my instincts based upon watching the trailers are to save my time and money. It looks like they are compressing the timeline and altering lore quite a bit to do their own thing. Putting Harfoots in the show really feels off... Sure, they could have been roaming around somewhere in the 2nd Age but they don't figure into any of the stories, so what are they going to do? My prediction is that the 'meteor man' will be Sauron posing as an emissary of the Valar and calling himself Annatar, and his dealings with the Harfoots -- such as slaughtering them or betraying them or simply not thinking them relevant -- is intended to contrast with them eventually causing his downfall. That seems most likely, but I would love it if the 'meteor man' was a red herring but also from the lore, such as the maia Tilion, the source of "The Man in the Moon" songs! I'm afraid it's going to be Gandalf. If they try to shoehorn Gandalf and Hobbits into the show, just to make it feel like THE LORD OF THE RINGS, that won't feel right at all. They're trying to do too much with the show, with the forging of the Rings of Power but also the Downfall of Numenor, which is weird if the show runners don't have the rights to the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. It looks like they're going to compress many of the important events of the 2nd Age into a human lifetime or else just diverge from lore so much as to be unrecognizable.

My fear is they're making this show for the 'casual' LOTR fan who saw the movies but never read the books and is assumed will be asking questions like "Where are the hobbits? Where is Gandalf?" and the show runners will give those fans what they're expecting and comfortable with. But that would be missing the phenomenon that Tolkien has had a worldwide fandom for generations based on the books and who are crazy devoted to the lore.

[geneweigel]

I feel like all this bad casting is going to lead to a remake with Boromir being a fully white trash racist whose family suppressed black Aragorn who had to live in the Rivendell ghetto. It looks like just another "Mafia Julius Caesar" low IQ produced junk that has nowhere to go but down.

[GRWelsh]

My take on the casting of people of color in white roles and gender swapping is that it isn't so much about inclusivity as baiting... If you criticize it at all you 'took the bait' and now get called a racist, misogynist, etc. You can't even have the conversation because it degenerates into immediate name calling on both sides: "Woke trash" and "racist woman-hater" etc. The whole thing turns into a reflection of a modern culture war rather than evaluating the actual merits of the story. So, the best thing to do is not take the bait. I don't want to hate on the cast since I haven't seen them perform yet, and this culture war nonsense isn't their fault... They're probably just looking for work and happy to have landed a role on a big show. Inappropriate casting is an indicator something is off -- an agenda different from simply making a good show true to Tolkien's creation -- but isn't a deal breaker if the story is actually good. I hope they prove me wrong.