Silver Daggers "UnMoldvayed"

[geneweigel]

I noticed last night that my copies of B2 had two different price lists. One has silver daggers to buy and the other.. DOES NOT.

The copy with the silver dagger came with the 1981 Basic and has sketchy monsters from that tacked on as well.

In both copies the 800 g.p. silver dagger is present in Area 62 THE CRYPT:

and a silver dagger worth 800
gold pieces because of the gems set into its pommel*.

The silver-tipped arrow is 5 g.p. compared to the PLAYERS HANDBOOK which is arrow,silver,single 1 g.p.

This translates to me as local silver price is higher by a factor of 5

So a "PHB silver dagger" might be matched at a price 6 g.p. (30 g.p. divided by 5 = 6 g.p.)

[Scott]

I’ve had multiple copies over the years, but never at the same time to compare them like that.

[geneweigel]

The original game had silver effecting wights, wraiths, and lycanthropes. 5 g.p. for a silver tipped arrow.

3 book Lycan aligments: Boar-N/C, bear - L/N, tiger - N/C, wolf - N/C

----------------------------

Holmes - This "5 g.p. for a silver tipped arrow" carried over to Holmes Basic Set with wights, wraiths and werewolves noted as "lawful evil".

Holmes - Lycan aligments: Boar-N/CG, Rat N/LE, bear - N/CG, tiger - N/CE, wolf - N/LE

-----------------------------

Marsh/Moldvay/Cook - Basic Expert (1981) has silver effecting wraiths, wights and lycanthropes.


Marsh/Moldvay/Cook - Lycan aligments: Boar-N, Rat C, bear - N, tiger - N, wolf - C

-----------------------------

So the AD&D view - silver versus LE in general (undead and deviltry), lycanthropes, most daemons (nyca and mezzo excluded) and yeth, FF gets kind of sloppy but its FF so...

[geneweigel]

Alright so the silver factor extrapolated would a "silvered" weapon be X3 cost?

[Scott]

I would say more if you want a weapon that will last. The wear and tear most melee weapons take isn’t such a factor with a small, piercing weapon like an arrow or dagger.

[geneweigel]

Good points. I'm going to look more into this and this actually might make it into a whole blog post because I turned over some forgotten material.

[geneweigel]

Sorry, I got caught up in the big sea of crap that I'm in. Specifically, its more detailed than we thought in the background. Except it didn't get fit in like it should. I need to write this down. Currently, I've discovered two distinct types one all covering with plating and one just as good with multiple inlays.

[GRWelsh]

What did Moldvay do to silver daggers? I was having trouble following the train of thought in this thread.

[geneweigel]

I meant the 30 gold bit has that user end, "peaceful" (cheap;dull) DM feel where the DM wants "balance" for the sake of "seat of the pants" authoritarian control where they drone on and on in a tavern for hours and hours and hours then the DM's cousin comes in and says,"Who are these suckers?" Ah! Ahhh!! ARRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!

Seriously, I like the look and feel of the 1981 Basic book but it has that overbaked clunky feel and that may be part of that. I always fantasized about reediting it but is that legal if I published for free?

[GRWelsh]

You could re edit, but even if legal, it's not worth the bother. There are so many clones out there already -- what's the point? Don't get sucked into some weird obsession about fixing the past.

The 1981 Basic box set has the strongest nostalgic pull for me because it was the first D&D item I ever owned, but any time I try to play it again I'm reminded of why I like AD&D better. The illustrations and layout of the rule book takes me back to the summer of 1981 when D&D was still new and the only limit was the imagination... But those rules were only a brief stepping stone to AD&D. What I like more about AD&D and less about D&D isn't directly attributable to Moldvay (or Holmes, for that matter) and I don't really associate Moldvay with the "cheap DM" or "thespian role-playing" tediousness. I simply felt D&D was the earlier iteration of the game that EGG left behind when he was adding supplements and ultimately moving towards the more complex and refined AD&D, and that Moldvay (like Holmes before him) was simply given the job to take the old game and make it more user-friendly. Moldvay's fantasy sensibilities seemed okay to me as pulp and probably were more in line with EGG's own preferences with ISLE OF DREAD like "King Kong," LOST CITY like "Red Nails," CASTLE AMBER from Clark Ashton Smith's Averoigne, etc. as opposed to many gamers wanting or expecting Tolkien-style fantasy.

[geneweigel]

I think he was in the zone but he went down trendy paths which Gary had brought up in regards to what was going on in the early 80's with the the TSR staff which is the best example the WHITE APE entry:

White apes have lost their color due to many years of living in
caves. They are nocturnal, sleeping in the day and looking for fruits
and vegetables at night. If creatures approach their lair, the apes
will threaten them. If their threats are ignored, they will attack.
They may throw one stone per round for 1d6 points. White apes
are not intelligent and sometimes are kept as pets by Neanderthals.

Compare that to Holmes' Tower of Zenopus example:

Against the south wall there is an ape in an iron
cage. The key is in the lock of the cage door. The ape is
2 hit die and is armor class 7 (leather), and will attack
as soon as he gets out — he hates the cage and has
been waiting to get even. If the magic-user opens the
cage there is a 25% chance the ape will attack him. If
anyone else opens the cage, the ape will attack
someone in the room and then try to escape through a
window, down the side of the tower and off through
the city streets.

Its weaker (2 HD compared to the White Ape's 4 HD) but its got the "look" of something that makes more sense.

[GRWelsh]

There have been a lot of bad trends but players are partly responsible. For every cheap DM there is a cheap player who wants to haggle over prices with traders and provisioners, and for every storyteller DM there is the thespian player who will role play three hours in town if you let him. Of course, it is up to the DM to limit this nonsense and lasso it into something resembling a D&D game... I often remind myself of G1 and S1 where you start everyone at the adventure itself and there is nothing whatsoever wrong with doing that!

In my group the bad trend is pre-game yak-fest totally unrelated to the game. Also, you could say another bad trend is we're all getting old so we don't usually play past midnight. So actual game playing time is at a premium.

[geneweigel]

Drinking is also a problem with the old crowd. People off the street would never drink. If you're coming that far for a D&D game then why drink? The shark type players want to play, laugh & drink then when everyone is stupified enough hijack everyone to go see what is going on downtown. Those games are the worst for the game but good for morale.

[Scott]

Jan 3, 2019 16:41:53 GMT -5 GRWelsh said:

The 1981 Basic box set has the strongest nostalgic pull for me because it was the first D&D item I ever owned, but any time I try to play it again I'm reminded of why I like AD&D better. The illustrations and layout of the rule book takes me back to the summer of 1981 when D&D was still new and the only limit was the imagination... But those rules were only a brief stepping stone to AD&D. What I like more about AD&D and less about D&D isn't directly attributable to Moldvay (or Holmes, for that matter) and I don't really associate Moldvay with the "cheap DM" or "thespian role-playing" tediousness. I simply felt D&D was the earlier iteration of the game that EGG left behind when he was adding supplements and ultimately moving towards the more complex and refined AD&D, and that Moldvay (like Holmes before him) was simply given the job to take the old game and make it more user-friendly. Moldvay's fantasy sensibilities seemed okay to me as pulp and probably were more in line with EGG's own preferences with ISLE OF DREAD like "King Kong," LOST CITY like "Red Nails," CASTLE AMBER from Clark Ashton Smith's Averoigne, etc. as opposed to many gamers wanting or expecting Tolkien-style fantasy.

Same here. Moldvay was the first D&D product I own, and I feel that nostalgia every time I flip through the book.
I ran some by the book Moldvay last summer, and I really enjoyed it. The 0 HP equals death needs to be house ruled. Cleric spells (none at 1st level, and fewer in general) are probably the biggest negative. I'd like to run KotB using the Moldvay set sometime in the future for the ultimate retro, nostalgic game.

[geneweigel]

Yeah, then there is the question of using the old books routinely with new players. I have two copies of 1981 Basic. One that was stuck in a binder and the other was my original "cop torn" mess. The rest fell in the 80's. Even if you had a sheet who the hell would use it if these things cost at least $30 apiece in sketchy condition on Ebay.