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Post by Drexlorn on Sept 10, 2004 12:04:25 GMT -5
Greetings, I've heard many rumors about the 3E version of the module, most of them being negatives. For example, I've read that the encounter with the vampire illusion (the prince) in the original was changed for a real vampire ! Many Greyhawk fans agree that the author demolished and ridiculized the concept of the original adventure. Can you confirm anything about it ? Let's rant !
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Post by Scott on Sept 10, 2004 16:53:28 GMT -5
Well, it's definately not a 'Return to' in a true sense. More like a 'loosely based on'. It's not really a 3E version of the same adventure, it's supposed to be a sequel. If you have very little knowledge of Greyhawk history, and you're a 3E fan, you might actually like this. As far as being considered a Greyhawk product by those who have been long-term Greyhawk fans, it's not even worth mentioning. Scott
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Sept 10, 2004 17:13:14 GMT -5
ISTR reading that the EEG gets confused with Tharizdun in this module. I'm not sure that one can really blame Monte Cook for this -- I don't think he was on the Greyhawk team at WOTC so he would have depended on others (such as SKR) for info on the setting.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Sept 10, 2004 21:43:04 GMT -5
WARNING!!!! ToEE SPOILERS!!!!! In the original, the vampire illusion is cast over crown prince Thrommel, a paladin. In the rehash, Thrommel IS a vampire!! And yes--to my utter disdain--Tharizdun is equated with the EEG!!! SHEESH!!!!! Some try to defend all of this, but to me it was shoddy research! The info was openly available to anybody who really wanted to look it up! "Nuff said!
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 11, 2004 9:34:49 GMT -5
Actually, they "let Monte riff out his version" (The "GH guy" was in his campaign group) thats why there was an almost immediate contradictory version of Tharizdun in Dragon at the premiere of RTTTOEE. Which was even worse than the version of Tharizdun in RTTTOEE! I which I could dig up my reactions to those on the WOTC board but I think they deleted them all.
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Post by Drexlorn on Sept 12, 2004 21:43:06 GMT -5
WARNING!!!! ToEE SPOILERS!!!!! In the original, the vampire illusion is cast over crown prince Thrommel, a paladin. In the rehash, Thrommel IS a vampire!! And yes--to my utter disdain--Tharizdun is equated with the EEG!!! SHEESH!!!!! Some try to defend all of this, but to me it was shoddy research! The info was openly available to anybody who really wanted to look it up! "Nuff said! Absolutly, as I've done this room as a player in the original, I was surprised that someone told me he fought a vampire there... I was thinking of a joke. I know now why the guy was confused when I said they got caught in the trick as they killed the "vampire". In fact, in their version, there was no more trick, no more "use ya brain before anything" but just a big HD monster to satisfy the munchkin players. I wonder why they still play tabletop RPG if their game fall this low ?? Damn, if they have a computer, they just have to buy one of the hundreds 3E RPG game out there in the software shop!
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Post by tzelios on Oct 16, 2004 8:43:41 GMT -5
Hi all, I am a new member of the board, some of you already know me (hi Falconer). I have worked on Thrommel's anomalies. In case anyone is interested to put inline published material on Thrommel, and in particular his vampiricism read the following: Thrommel's ring hidden in Tenser's castle (Rot8) is a different ring from the one described in the ToEE module. They are both signet rings. However, the one is golden and the other is platinum. Moreover, the ring in Tenser΄s castle used to sport a rare magical item, a soul gem, while the ring of the Temple has no gemstone. In addition, the golden ring is with Vampire Thrommel at the Outer Fane of the Temple of All-Consumption (RttToEE), while at the same time the platinum ring, which used to sport Thrommel΄s soul gem, is inside Tenser΄s castle. Vampire Thrommel΄s ring is the same with the one that the prince was wearing while in stasis at the Temple of Elemental Evil (compare the prices in ToEE and RttToEE modules, they are equal). By the Rot8 reference it is implied that a team of adventures found Thrommel in the Temple of Elemental Evil, and, duped by the powerful illusion spell, attacked the fake vampire with steel, spells, and fire, hence the battered and burned condition of the ring. This could have been done by any team prior or during Robilar΄s disastrous foray into the Temple at 579CY, including Robilar himself. Moreover, Rot8 module implies that the gemstone was detached from the ring, and the ring without its gem, somehow during the attack parted, slipped or was unawarely thrust away from Thrommel΄s beaten body. And thus the conclusion of having the Vampire Thrommel with his magical dagger, and his golden belt, amulet, and ring inside the Temple of All-consumption, and the platinum ring missing its gemstone inside Tenser΄s castle. Fragarach is in Aerth of Mythus fantasy RPG (ToEE module predates Mythus RPG). Where could Thrommel΄s soul gem be? Note that the body of Thrommel without its soul is sufficient to have a Vampire Thrommel by using a create greater undead spell. Hence, it is not necessary that Thrommel’s soul gem be in possession of Tharizdun’s cult. However, due to the fact that Vampire Thrommel maintains some part of his pre-vampiric consciousness (at the ToAC he has a fiendish bat servant named Jolana), we must admit that his soul gem was used by ToEE masters to restore him to life, and afterwards he was infected by vampirism. Why would Thrommel have two signet rings? The only logical explanation that could be found is that the ring with the gemstone was a gift of King Belvor to Thrommel, prior to his marriage with Princess Jolene. It might have been accompanied with a second signet ring for Princess Jolene, which could have been destroyed during the attack on Thrommel at the Temple of Elemental Evil. Thrommel did not wear the second ring, while in stasis at the ToEE, instead it was in his pocket. Belvor knew of the prophecy made long ago to the first King of Furyondy, Thrommel I, regarding Prince Thrommel´s disposition and his rescuing. He wanted to protect his only son and heir by providing him with a soul gem. Aditionally, the ring inside Tenser´s castle is more ornate, and made of a more precious material than the ring of ToEE, which reflects the higher status that Thrommel would have acquired. More on that article can be read in www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=281&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0Regards, tzelios
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Post by Scott on Oct 16, 2004 9:50:37 GMT -5
Thanks for stopping by tz. Most of the regulars here prefer 1E and Gygax-era Greyhawk, so you might not get a lot of discussion on the events described in your post, but don't get discouraged, and feel free to post/discuss whatever's on your mind. There just may be a member, or lurker, that has the answer you're looking for. Scott
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Post by tzelios on Oct 17, 2004 8:11:54 GMT -5
Thanks for the invitation Scott, Your board is very interesting to me. My first post was just to see reactions. I have no problem if I am not the perfect fit. Any information on original Greyhawk I value a lot, following the tenets of Gelleb Cheers, tzelios
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Post by Scott on Oct 17, 2004 8:26:28 GMT -5
Information on original Greyhawk we got. As for RttToEE, if I wasn't a Greyhawk fan, and didn't know so much about the setting/history, I'd probably like it, but as it is, the adventure strikes me as something written by someone not terribly familiar with the setting that spent a night or two reading the original and paging through some other old Greyhawk material. Monte tried to link too many unrelated pieces together. Linking Tharizdun with the ToEE and the EEG was just cheesy. But as I said, if I change some names and pretend it's not supposed to be a Greyhawk adventure, it's not that bad. Scott
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Oct 17, 2004 13:34:41 GMT -5
Well, at least somebody tried to reconcile the glaring errors in the module, but the whole premise of equating the EEG with Tharizdun will forever leave a sour note with me! If Monte had looked at the G3 module, where three of the EEG's (yes, there are at least three!) are shown devouring humans and demi-humans on a mural, then the difference between said entity and that portrayed in WG4 (or the Gord novels if one wanted to do just a tiny bit more of research!) would have been manifest. As to Thrommel, if my party would have failed to recognize him, they wouldn't have left enough to bring back as a true vampre! I don't know that Robilar ever actually messed with the Thrommel/Vampire--he rather bulled his way through without stopping for enigmas. I suppose one could ask Rob on his board. ^__^
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Hadit
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Post by Hadit on Oct 17, 2004 22:29:36 GMT -5
Edition wars aside, I think RttToEE is a pretty decent super-mod. I agree that Monte is guilty of trying to link too many disparate ideas together, and name-checking too many characters from the original while giving them quirky new identities, but overall I have been enjoying using the material. I actually think that Tharizdun works well as a stand-in for the Elder Elemental God. Before I had access to the internet and sites like this one (or Dragonfoot), I had little idea what Gary intended for that entity’s development. The arcane temples from the drow series and the “forgotten” temple of Tharizdun from WG4 are actually quite similar in tone, leading me to draw a connection as well (even before reading RttToEE).
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Apr 7, 2009 6:20:09 GMT -5
What the heck?
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Post by Scott on Apr 7, 2009 7:16:06 GMT -5
For some reason, the spammers like the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Apr 7, 2009 19:58:11 GMT -5
Heh! So That's what that mess was... ^__^
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Post by Merkholz on May 8, 2009 1:48:17 GMT -5
Hmmm, isn't T1-4 the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil? It was first sacked in 569 CY after all. If you count Robilar's campaign-altering foray it could even be the third trip to ToEE! M
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on May 8, 2009 21:31:31 GMT -5
You have a point; but Gary reset the module such that Zuggtmoy is still imprisoned, and if all had gone well, we would've encountered the EEG as well! Frank did a great job with what he had--just add in a sub-level with EEG temple if you so desire (the temple layout is detailed in G3...)
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Falconer
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Post by Falconer on May 9, 2009 1:20:02 GMT -5
Obviously you can't count Robilar's foray.
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