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Post by Scott on Jul 24, 2004 13:55:59 GMT -5
As discussed earlier, and elsewhere, Gary had a major change in direction while developing this adventure. His original plan to use Lolth was scrapped, and Zuggtmoy was created as her replacement. Some references to Lolth appeared in the published adventures, but all such references should be considered editing errors. Both Lareth and Falrinth should be played as followers of Zuggtmoy. Scott
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Post by Falconer on Aug 17, 2004 22:24:59 GMT -5
I still think it's kind of cool to have servants of Lolth as a tenuous, weak, scouting, third (fourth/seventh/eighth) faction in the temple. Adds a little foreshadowing to GDQ, if you're planning on running it afterwards (as I am). It leaves the players remembering a little loose end that didn't quite make sense and never got resolved (until GDQ)--but not everything makes sense in the real world, either. I think it works as written, well enough. Regards.
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Post by Scott on Aug 18, 2004 16:28:51 GMT -5
I still think it's kind of cool to have servants of Lolth as a tenuous, weak, scouting, third (fourth/seventh/eighth) faction in the temple. Adds a little foreshadowing to GDQ, if you're planning on running it afterwards (as I am). It leaves the players remembering a little loose end that didn't quite make sense and never got resolved (until GDQ)--but not everything makes sense in the real world, either. I think it works as written, well enough. Regards. The possibility for less the fanatical followers of Zuggtmoy being present is high due to the chaotic nature of the folowers, many of whom will go where they see the potential for loot and power. A tenuous, weak faction of anybody could be present, but the two characters associated with Lolth are two of the most important in the adventure. The whole Lolth element always seemed clunky to me, unless you rework the thing to be closer to Gary's original idea and replace Zuggtmoy with Lolth. Once I found out what was behind the references (poor editing) things made a lot more sense. Scott
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Post by Scott on Aug 18, 2004 19:19:28 GMT -5
I think it works as written, well enough. I think this is one of the things that really bothers me about the ToEE, I don't consider it to be the 'as written' version; it strikes me more as the 'as quickly thrown together from three different sources' version. One of my biggest D&D regrets is that I'll never get to see the 'as written' version of the adventure. Scott
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Post by Drexlorn on Aug 28, 2004 15:43:53 GMT -5
I've been a player of the temple of elemental evil. My DM didn't know that and I just learned it. ;D But being a human and following Lolth was very strange... We never understood what this came to be. Now I have the answer..
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Post by Falconer on Aug 28, 2004 15:52:36 GMT -5
Falrinth's familiar is "a gift from the demoness Lolth, who is happy to have catspaws in Zuggtmoy's territory (for obvious reasons)." This is not an editorial oversight. This is a bald reference to two distinct factions: Lolth slowly encroaching on Zuggtmoy's territory. Falrinth and his gang are clearly cut off and hidden from Zuggtmoy's priesthood and Iuz's military. He's frickin' hoarding the Yellowskull, the very cornerstone of the Temple, witholding it from Zuggtmoy (and Iuz), who certainly want to recover it for themselves.
As for Lareth, it doesn't really matter whom he serves, but it works as written (really as written, in this case). The party explores this supposed outpost of the Temple and "discovers" that it's really Lolth behind it, only to find at the Temple itself that Lolth is just a small part of the big picture, a Demon Queen working behind the scenes in secret plots but not an immediate threat. St Cuthbert takes Iuz out of the picture (at least temporarily--though for me, St Cuthbert is in cahoots with Zagyg and helps him imprison Iuz after Cuthbert and Iuz disappear from the Temple to go "settle their differences": this allows me to run Castle Zagyg properly later on), and the party lays Zuggtmoy low. Then, in G-D-Q, the party finds an unresolved factor in the continued plotting of Lolth, and so the saga ends with fighting Lolth in Q1 as it had begun with fighting her servant in T1. Of course, then, there's still the Elder Elemental God...
I dunno, I just like it. YMMV. Regards.
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Post by Drexlorn on Aug 28, 2004 15:58:15 GMT -5
The party fights Lolth Is there in the abyss or on the prime ? Wooa! It must be a major challenge ! What level the adventurers are supposed to be at this time ? How much players needed at minimum ?
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Post by Falconer on Aug 28, 2004 16:29:04 GMT -5
The recommended levels for Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits are 10-14, and I believe something like 9 players are suggested, but there is no actual minimum requirement. And it's in the Abyss. ;-) Regards.
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Post by Scott on Aug 28, 2004 17:53:22 GMT -5
Falrinth's familiar is "a gift from the demoness Lolth, who is happy to have catspaws in Zuggtmoy's territory (for obvious reasons)." This is not an editorial oversight.Regards. Lolth being mentioned in T1 was an editorial oversight. This is a clunky attempt to make the editorial oversight fit into the greater scheme of the temple. Scott
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Post by Scott on Aug 28, 2004 18:08:13 GMT -5
Actually, it's impossible to know if that line was written by Frank M. trying to add more to the Lolth reference from T1, or if it was part of EGG's original notes that were added to the text as is. Either way, an editorial oversight is the root of Lolth in the published versions of T1 and T1-4. Scott
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Post by Falconer on Aug 28, 2004 18:40:11 GMT -5
Well, it could be one of two things.
THING A: 1979 - T1 The Village of Hommlet published. Lolth is the Temple Villainess. 1980 - Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits published. Showdown with Lolth is here. Gary decides Lolth must not be Temple Villainess. 1980 - The World of Greyhawk folio published. Temple Villainess is now revealed to be a new demoness, Tsuggtmoy/Zuggtmoy. 1985 - T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil published. Gygax and/or Mentzer consciously decide not to change Lareth's patroness in the reprint of T1 here, but rather to include Lolth as a minor plot in a Zuggtmoy-dominated Temple.
In this case there is no editorial oversight. The only hole in this is why there would be a TZGY scarab in T1. But TZGY could be meaningless (or yet another sort of Gygax anagram), and the name Tsuggtmoy/Zuggtmoy could be formed from the TZGY scarab rather than the other way around. This could justify the dual spelling of the name in the folio.
THING B: 1979 - T1 The Village of Hommlet published. Lolth is said to be the Temple Villainess, but this is an editorial oversight as Gygax already intended to change it to Zuggtmoy due to the upcoming Q1. This can be seen from the traders' posession of a TZGY scarab. 1980 - Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits published. Showdown with Lolth is here. 1980 - The World of Greyhawk folio published. Temple Villainess is now revealed to be Tsuggtmoy/Zuggtmoy. 1985 - T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil published. Gygax and/or Mentzer consciously decide not to change Lareth's patroness in the reprint of T1 here, but rather to include Lolth as a minor plot in a Zuggtmoy-dominated Temple.
I take it that this is the timeline you favor, or do you have an alternative view? I mean, this timeline makes sense, but I still don't see your point. The editorial oversight was in the original T1, fine. But not in T1-4. One or both of the authors of T1-4 decided that to make something clever out of the T1 oversight was a better solution than to change Lareth's patron demoness at that late date, which thousands of players already knew to be Lolth and were looking forward to her involvement in T1-4. So that's how the module was published.
Personally, I think his/their "fix" was clever and interesting, taking a minor conundrum and making the whole better. Your fix is just to make Lareth and Falrinth followers of Zuggtmoy. But it doesn't work to make Falrinth a servant of Zuggtmoy without further fixing/justification. As I stated earlier, if Falrinth is a servant of Zuggtmoy, why is he hiding the Orb of Golden Death away from Zuggtmoy and her priesthood?
Anyway, either way it's not a big deal at all. And it's just up to the DM how he wants to handle it, after all. I just want to prove that it can work, er, as published.
Not fightin' you, Scott... Just sayin'... ;-) Regards.
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Post by Scott on Aug 28, 2004 20:21:36 GMT -5
Hey Falconer, you're one of the good guys in my book, so no need to worry about "fightin'". EGG informed me some time ago that the Lolth reference in T1 was a mistake. When Gary wrote the original manuscript, he was going to use Lolth. Before it was released, the decision to go ahead with Q1 was made, so he decided to go with something else, Zuggtmoy. The scarab is added/updated, but the material on Lareth is not. By the time T1 was published, EGG already had a ton of notes for T2 written, some written while he still had Lolth in mind, and some after he decided to go with Zuggtmoy. Gary had very little to no input on the released version of T1-4 from here on. His notes sat around for years. Finally TSR decided to go ahead without him. Frank Mentzer took T1, Gary's notes, and some of his own material and threw together T1-4. Lots of mistakes and inconsistencies made it into the released version. It's amazing it turned out as good as it did. You could go so many ways with the material as is. For years I ran it with all of the factions in there as is. Now I prefer a simpler approach. If I run it again, I will change it to make it as close to the original idea as I can, based on the information EGG has given me. Maybe go back to Lolth, maybe throw in some drow, definitely add a secret sect of serious EEG worshippers. Scott
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Post by Drexlorn on Aug 29, 2004 16:31:15 GMT -5
Everytime I see EEG I'm reading EGG, confusing ! ;D
I know that EEG stands for Elder Elemental God. But who is that ?
We were supposed to hear of him while playing in T1-4 ??
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Post by Scott on Aug 29, 2004 17:14:12 GMT -5
The EEG is Vilp-akf'cho Rentaq, and you can read a little about him in the Dorgha Torgu thread in this forum. Scott
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Post by Falconer on Aug 30, 2004 7:11:46 GMT -5
Drexlorn: while Zuggtmoy and Iuz exploit the cult of Elemental Evil for their own gain, there actually is an Elder Elemental God (mentioned in the G and D series), an ancient deity of great power. Gary has mentioned that an altar with some sort of way to communicate with the EEG can be found in a lower (unpublished) level of the ToEE. He doesn't actually come into play in the the ToEE as published, but I fancy that while Zuggtmoy and Iuz think they're using his cult to their own purposes, it's really him manipulating them... Regards.
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Post by Drexlorn on Aug 30, 2004 18:02:41 GMT -5
Drexlorn: while Zuggtmoy and Iuz exploit the cult of Elemental Evil for their own gain, there actually is an Elder Elemental God (mentioned in the G and D series), an ancient deity of great power. Gary has mentioned that an altar with some sort of way to communicate with the EEG can be found in a lower (unpublished) level of the ToEE. He doesn't actually come into play in the the ToEE as published, but I fancy that while Zuggtmoy and Iuz think they're using his cult to their own purposes, it's really him manipulating them... Regards. In which way he's manipulating ? What is gained ffrom what happen in the temple ?
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Post by Falconer on Aug 31, 2004 1:12:08 GMT -5
Well, I've never really thought it through before (the ways of gods are mysterious, especially sleeping/dead/imprisoned ones). But I guess all the works of the temple really are in the EEG's name, and their influence and their prayers ultimately do redound to his power and glory. Hmm. Regards.
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Post by GT on Sept 4, 2004 12:56:12 GMT -5
As a matter of fact, the Elder Elemental god was to have played a role in T4 and Q1, but due to Gary travelling quite a bit at the time and his decision to have DCS finish Q1 so that it wouldn't be so similar to T4, that was lost. In the original version of the Temple, there was indeed a hidden altar to the EEG; in fact the Temple was built over an existing, older shrine to that deity. The EEG, although of alien outlook, would have been quite displeased with Zuggtmoy's usurping of its base. Gary said that the EEG would have served as a counter to Zuggtmoy if both were summoned as they would battle it out! The EEG is actually one of three-- the "Rentaq" designation was not actually Gary's as I recall--I don't think Gary actually ever named any of them (But something like 'Khulkru' would have been very likely...). Gary said "think of the Kraken from Merritt's " Dwellers In the Mirage" or Xotli from the Conan novels when thinking of the EEG's"(there were at least three). He said they were not elemental in the sense of air/fire/water/earth, but rather as a raw, creative force--albeit rather dark by our standards. That said, I'm not sure how the EEG's would have figured in the finale of Q1, but as House Eilserv of the Drow worshipped one of the Elder Elemental Gods, I surmise that there would have been a showdown to destroy the portals that allowed the creature to enter Oerth's dimension, thus shattering the power of Eclavdra and her minions. I hope that helps...
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