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Post by Scott on Apr 10, 2015 8:02:18 GMT -5
I like the module placement of Hommlet and the distance from Verbobonc. I like the T1-4 greater distance between Hommlet and Nulb; forcing the party to use Nulb adds some interesting adventure potential. I'm not sure about the distance between Nulb and the Velverdyva. It seems like it should be shorter. I think I remember reading, possibly in the same Dragonsfoot thread referenced earlier, that the river was closer originally.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 10, 2015 9:50:08 GMT -5
The only talks that I had with Gary about Hommlet sounded like rhetoric out of things I had already read or heard before. For example, Kuntz and company steamrolling the adventure, etc., etc., Whenever you got into measurement over semantics and anectdotes then Gary would freak over how they stole all his work.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 10, 2015 14:05:01 GMT -5
Here is a piece of CHAPTER 11 of GREYHAWK ADVENTURES: ARTIFACT OF EVIL:
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 10, 2015 14:06:24 GMT -5
From this it would point to any of the known positions in a NE direction from Enstad.
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 12, 2015 18:34:56 GMT -5
40 leagues = 120 miles If Hommlet is 40 leagues from Enstad "as the hippogriff flies" then that is the same as four "Darlene hexes" (which are 30 miles each). That leaves the T1-4 or Polyhedron hex locations as the only live options, if one is going to use ARTIFACT OF EVIL as a primary reference.
A few things I noticed for the first time, re-reading this passage:
kinself = kinsman among elves staviary = stable + aviary
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 13, 2015 9:04:53 GMT -5
If Gary was still around you probably would hear something about the measurement of leagues in Greyhawk being subjective! GAH! I had a note about the hippogriffs somewhere. I've got to see if I can dig it up. (( PAUSE TO DIG DOWNSTAIRS)) Here it is in ARTIFACT OF EVIL notes: Its a Jurrasic Park notebook bought at AMES for $1.79 it says 1992 but the movie came out in June 1993: I believe that I had bought that notebook for D&D notes before the movie came out. The transcribing of notes from the novels were provoked by FROM THE ASHES boxed set which was 1992. I recall writing the nasty rage out about D&D letter to TSR in 1993 which had some juicy parts mentioned in Sage Advice with my name dropped in DRAGON #200 (DEC 1993) but the context of the letter was ignored and Skip gave some FUCK YOU, I AM THE SAGE response to specific comments of the lameness of the IUZ THE EVIL sourcebook(1993). Here are my twisted words as they appeared in the SAGE ADVICE in bold: In WGR5 Iuz the Evil, the words celbit and jebli are applied to tribes of orcs in the land of Iuz, but didnt an earlier WORLD OF GREYHAWK® products use these names in a different manner?Actually, there are no authoritative definitions for either of these names in print anywhere (at least none I know about). Nevertheless, these words are Flan names for two humanoid races: Celbit is the Flan word for kobold and jebli is the Flan word for goblin. Here is a more complete list of Flan names, courtesy of reader Gene Weigel of Albany, N.Y.: Orc: Euroz Goblin: Jebli Ogre: Eiger Gnoll: Kell Kobold: Celbit Hobgoblin: High Jebli Elf: Olve Dwarf: Dwur Halfling: Hobniz Gnome: Noniz Gene gleaned these names from the original WORLD OF GREYHAWK boxed set (TSR product #1015).
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 13, 2015 11:14:34 GMT -5
I love the notebook -- great idea.
I'd pay money for that notebook!
I had it in the back of my mind of doing that sort of thing, the next time I read through the books. I also wanted to place all of the locations given in the Gord novels and stories onto a scanned copy of the Darlene map, perhaps to make an "annotated map." To me, FROM THE ASHES and all of that other post-EGG development never happened... it's an alternate Prime Material plane or something.
At one time I bought FtA, Iuz the Evil, Marklands, and several other products, but I got rid of them all. I pretend to myself that I never even owned them.
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Post by Scott on Apr 13, 2015 12:54:46 GMT -5
Same here. I remember being impressed by the presentation, but then I read them and thought they were pretty bad. Beyond just a different style, it was like the author just didn't get the Greyhawk vibe.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 13, 2015 16:55:30 GMT -5
Its crazy how all that went down and fans like myself were left in the dark. I just looked at Skip Williams' answer as validating my ranting. Ha!
I think in my campaign that "Celene" was tromped on as the generic elfland so much that I warped it beyond its conception as a homeland to gray elves and it became more Camelot-ish by the mid1990s.
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 13, 2015 19:24:20 GMT -5
I don't think a Camelot theme is too much of a stretch in a place where one of the prominent NPC's is named Parseval.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 14, 2015 8:16:40 GMT -5
Specifically, I meant more of an emphasis otherworld people who are inherently linked to man in some vague spiritual way rather than just some Mr Spock who takes a crap in a different way which frankly is the way people were playing elves for years.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 14, 2015 13:17:39 GMT -5
After having met Mentzer I believe that he always aimed to satisfy the D&D that Gary had in mind. That said this (t1-4) was supposed to present a follow up of something (t1) played for half a decade with all its details in the faces of an entire world of roleplaying enthusiasts. To publish this in the midst of what was going on was probably impossible so I can imagine all involved in its publication didnt think things through.
But we are chasing smoke dragons.
Straight up T1 Nulb: off the radar
T1-4 Nulb: smack dab in the middle of a misplaced road
You have to break it to reset it to fit i think that is the conclusion but where? Does it matter? Just off any road.
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Post by Scott on Apr 14, 2015 15:21:44 GMT -5
I agree with your conclusion. I like the distance from Verbobonc to Hommlet, and from Hommlet to Nulb/the Temple. The exact placement is a lesser concern.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 15, 2015 8:10:25 GMT -5
I think that "making" an alternative T2-4 might be a great idea. Yesterday, I was looking around to see if there was anything about making an alternative T1-4 and I saw this website: greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2014/12/giving-up-on-fixing-temple-of-elemental.htmlHeh, poor bastard. Sounds like it ate him up and spit him out. BTW I'd probably want to remake his version, if he ever made one, as well. I know GT is using this guy's version of City of Greyhawk but ultimately this guy's GH view is too pedestrian or jejune or whatever you want to call it ("FR is ok", "Living Greyhawk is interesting", "GH needs board/card games", etc.) for my taste. So as usual its better to stake them in the coffin first and ask questions later... The copyright worry is irrelevant because, in this case, I believe he wants to sell it. There is nothing to stop making a T2 as it should have been, right? If its free?
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 15, 2015 11:15:35 GMT -5
I'd love to see an alternative T2. I think you should do it. If it is just freely offered, fan-based material, then I don't think there should be any problem. It isn't significantly different from anyone sharing their personal campaign game notes online.
If only we could wind back the clock, and step into an alternative dimension... it's 1985 and EGG was never ousted from TSR, and he published his own complete version of T2. What would it look like? Less editorial issues and a more sensible outdoor map, for sure. Lolth references replaced with Zuggtmoy? Possibly. No elemental nodes, but instead the Elder Elemental God on the lowest level? Something like that. IIRC, the upper levels of the ToEE were done by EGG and at least part of the lower levels -- and the elemental nodes -- were done by Frank Mentzer. So that would be one approach, trying to imagine "what would EGG's version have actually been like" and trying (in vain, largely) to create that.
Or, one could just completely ignore T1-4 and do a straight up sequel to T1, something completely original that isn't based on the published T1-4. As in, "This is sort of how I imagined the Temple would be, in the 1979-85 period, before I ever saw a copy of T1-4."
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 15, 2015 13:28:51 GMT -5
Turning back into an alternate dimension has its ups and downs because we don't know how to fix it where Gary is continually in a place that is ideal for his work to be presented to us. 1980 he is a total winner but by 1985 he still hasn't got a map for Nulb because he's got too many celebrity-style girlfriends for the first time in his life. We need a time warp to 1980 where he gets kidnapped from Hollywood and brought to a "Greyhawk dungeon pocket plane" where his equipment of tinted glasses, v-necked sweaters and neck kerchiefs get confiscated and replaced with a pile of notebooks, quadrille and hex notepads, pencils and ten typewriters! Seriously, he was too busy schmoozing with celebrities trying to get a straight up D&D movie made in the world of Greyhawk. If you cored it down to what is missing from T1-4 its: TOO MUCH QUALITY TO HANDLE. We received a void where content was supposed to be on many counts. 1) Lolth on the surface world. 2) Nulb as built up entity on par with Moathouse and trumping Hommlet for things to do. 3) Other locales (Sobanwych, Ostverk, druids of Gnarley, etc.) 4) Elder elemental levels. 5) A cohesive relationship with lairs nearby. 6) A character class that fits Thrommel. 7) An area for the Y'Dey party in the dungeon. 8) Most importantly clues to other products instead of the adventure devouring clues from old products.
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Post by Merkholz on Apr 16, 2015 8:07:23 GMT -5
I just got a nice, inspired idea. Why not build the surrounding lands into a variation of a marshland, jungle landscape similar to the areas in True Detective. Complete with a bandit and cultist network, "redneck" roughhousing, depraved and perverted homesteads and everywhere the signs leading back to a more or less organized evil emanating from the Temple - not so forgotten but involuntarily overlooked due to the horrors found there a decade ago.
A reworked T1-2 needs to figure out what role Iuz had in its construction, when Iuz was imprisoned, who he was in cahoots with and what their relationship (if any) was to the EEG. IMO it's possible to have all these interests present in or around the Temple but it needs to be straightened out.
I would probably prefer a description of the area and its inhabitants and then a separate folder for plots, adventures, etc. The adventure folder could then be optional or converted to every DM's campaign.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 16, 2015 10:22:01 GMT -5
I don't think it'll even be a problem if its really different because there is a dimensional magic factor to the entirety anyway.
Step one is finding the source of inspiration for the entire area which I have a lot of specifics but big gaps.
Step one is cleaning it up map-wise and just plainly place everything (assume Mentzer was too shy to tell Gary he lost Nulb's information)
Step three flesh out the area and give it the ability to sustain a once thriving evil.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 16, 2015 10:23:14 GMT -5
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Post by Scott on Apr 17, 2015 8:19:45 GMT -5
I've had parties that have moved from the Moathouse right to the Temple, but that's an area that could use some expansion. If you consider re-adding the EGG to the mix, that might be a good time to introduce a clue, a small side adventure involving EEG cultists hinting that a force outside of Zuggtmoy's followers might be involved. You could also stick with what's there and create an adventure involving the forces in Nulb, or send the party on a jaunt to Verbobonc or Dyvers. A party would definitely benefit from a little more experience before proceeding to the Temple.
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