foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 28, 2018 11:56:02 GMT -5
I immediately looked over Celestian and he seems so "lesser" and "saintly" rather than subject for a planet. Although the gems for each of the 7 orders of Celestian seem to be saying some message. Is that the planets? We know from the SooC quote above that emerald = Oerth, jacinth = Rao (planet), and diamond = stars, and ruby and sapphire are mentioned as representing other planets (presumably, since moons, comets, etc. are represented by opals), so it makes sense that the topaz and amethyst represent planets as well, which works out nicely to five stones = the five visible planets. Ruby presumably represents "Mars," so we just need to decide how topaz, sapphire, and amethyst line up with "Mercury," "Venus," and "Saturn."
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 28, 2018 12:01:18 GMT -5
I came up with these quick Oerth-equivalents for the zodiac constellations this morning:
The Ram The Gorgon The Ettin The Crab The Sphinx The Dryad Istus The Scorpion The Centaur The Satyr The Djinn The Triton
Anybody got any better ideas (particularly for the three - ram, crab, and scorpion - that aren't changed from the earth version)?
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 28, 2018 12:06:10 GMT -5
I immediately looked over Celestian and he seems so "lesser" and "saintly" rather than subject for a planet. Although the gems for each of the 7 orders of Celestian seem to be saying some message. Is that the planets? We know from the SooC quote above that emerald = Oerth, jacinth = Rao (planet), and diamond = stars, and ruby and sapphire are mentioned as representing other planets (presumably, since moons, comets, etc. are represented by opals), so it makes sense that the topaz and amethyst represent planets as well, which works out nicely to five stones = the five visible planets. Ruby presumably represents "Mars," so we just need to decide how topaz, sapphire, and amethyst line up with "Mercury," "Venus," and "Saturn." Thats not easy: topaz brown Mercury sapphire blue Saturn amethyst purple Venus is my first reaction but...
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 28, 2018 12:19:23 GMT -5
I came up with these quick Oerth-equivalents for the zodiac constellations this morning: The Ram The Gorgon The Ettin The Crab The Sphinx The Dryad Istus The Scorpion The Centaur The Satyr The Djinn The Triton Anybody got any better ideas (particularly for the three - ram, crab, and scorpion - that aren't changed from the earth version)? Here are some non-humanoids from the list of 1983 toys for D&D: Carrion Crawler Chimera Dragon Dragonne Deadly Grell Hook Horror Hydra Neo-Otyguh Nightmare Raging Roper Shambling Mound Umber Hulk
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 28, 2018 12:49:17 GMT -5
I came up with these quick Oerth-equivalents for the zodiac constellations this morning: The Ram The Gorgon The Ettin The Crab The Sphinx The Dryad Istus The Scorpion The Centaur The Satyr The Djinn The Triton Anybody got any better ideas (particularly for the three - ram, crab, and scorpion - that aren't changed from the earth version)? How about substitute kraken for the crab? Could it make sense to substitute red dragon for the ram? Not sure what to do with the scorpion?
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 28, 2018 13:08:17 GMT -5
I like both of those suggestions (and they definitely fit with Ram/Red Dragon being a fire sign and Crab/Kraken being a water sign). And I'm fine with leaving the Scorpion as the only common member of the zodiac, because that's my astrological sign and it feels like a fun Gygax-style easter egg to make my own sign be the "universal constant" while the other 11 signs are all changed
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 28, 2018 20:28:52 GMT -5
Here is a list of all the constellations in the medieval period prior to 1500:
Andromeda Antinous Aquarius Ara Argo Navis Aries Asselli and Praesepe Auriga Bootes Cancer Canis Major Canis Minor Capra and Haedi Capricornus Cassiopeia Centaurus Cepheus Cetus Corona Australis Corona Borealis Corvus Crater Cygnus Delphinus Draco Equuleus Eridanus Gemini Hercules Hydra Leo Lepus Libra Lupus Lyra Opiuchus Orion Pegasus Perseus Phaethon Pisces Piscinus Austrnus Piscus Notus Sagitta Sagittarius Scorpius Serpens Tarabellum and Vexillum Taurus Triangulum Ursa Major Ursa Minor Virgo
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 28, 2018 21:16:30 GMT -5
I have some "stellar" types that I did for the planar thing I was doing a looong time back that I'm going to redo for the blog. The posts are going to be huge though because there is a lot of them.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Apr 9, 2018 13:54:34 GMT -5
Given all this, it seems pretty reasonable to guess all the planets are named for Greater Gods: Sun = Pelor Mercury = Zilchus Venus = Boccob Earth = Beory Mars = Ulaa Jupiter = Rao Saturn = Cyndor Neptune = Procan Uranus = Incabulos Pluto = Nerull "Planet X" = Tharizdun I was looking at the TOEE players' historical notes: Children sacrificed to the fire = this sounds perhaps similar to plutonism/vulcanism? Earth + fire? Hidden from visible view, Planet Pluto? Associate with elemental magma/sulfur? Men sacrificed to water = this sounds similar to Neptunism? Earth + water? Hidden from visible view, planet Neptune? Associate with elemental ooze/mercury? Women sacrificed to the blackest Evil, the epitome of Chaotic Evil regarded as a combination of air and earth, represented by blackness and corresponding with the demonic abyss and complete negation of matter? Hidden from visible view, planet Uranus? Associate with elemental salt/ash? Aether? Does the Abyss directly connect to the negative plane? What then of Planet X? Elemental anti-carbon, ebon-flame, vacuum, anti-water? It seems as though the temple of elemental evil might instigate an astrological cataclysm, such as the disappearance of the Handmaiden, Celene, putting an end to WOG festivals...?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Apr 9, 2018 14:00:14 GMT -5
Given all this, it seems pretty reasonable to guess all the planets are named for Greater Gods: Sun = Pelor Mercury = Zilchus Venus = Boccob Earth = Beory Mars = Ulaa Jupiter = Rao Saturn = Cyndor Neptune = Procan Uranus = Incabulos Pluto = Nerull "Planet X" = Tharizdun I was looking at the TOEE players' historical notes: Children sacrificed to the fire = this sounds perhaps similar to plutonism/vulcanism? Earth + fire? Hidden from visible view, Planet Pluto? Associate with elemental magma/sulfur? Men sacrificed to water = this sounds similar to Neptunism? Earth + water? Hidden from visible view, planet Neptune? Associate with elemental ooze/mercury? Women sacrificed to the blackest Evil, the epitome of Chaotic Evil regarded as a combination of air and earth, represented by blackness and corresponding with the demonic abyss and complete negation of matter? Hidden from visible view, planet Uranus? Associate with elemental salt/ash? Aether? Does the Abyss directly connect to the negative plane? What then of Planet X? Elemental anti-carbon, ebon-flame, vacuum, anti-water? It seems as though the temple of elemental evil might instigate an astrological cataclysm, such as the disappearance of the Handmaiden, Celene, putting an end to WOG festivals...? Or perhaps transformation of the Handmaiden, Celene, into Ceres?
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 13, 2018 13:42:21 GMT -5
I've been thinking of how applying real-world astronomy or even a "Spelljammer" approach to the World of Greyhawk, or any AD&D world in general, somewhat misses the point. The realm of the stars already exists in AD&D, and it is the Astral Plane, since astral means "of the stars." The Ethereal Plane comes from Latin aetherius which in turn comes from the Greek αἰθέριος meaning "of the upper air." This upper air, or pure air, is considered different from normal air, and may have been what the gods breathed, and sometimes it is equated with the fifth element or quintessence. So, in a more medieval/Ptolemaic cosmology, there is the upper air and stars beyond it, which also corresponds to the heavens. Traversing these physical distances equates to a spiritual journey as well to where the gods live. Going up is to where the gods live, going down below ground is to go into the Underworld where hell, Hades, and the land of the dead are, among the vast caverns and lava. And the Zodiac is connected to the Astral, i.e. the signs and patterns displayed by divine beings from the heavens.
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Post by Scott on Apr 13, 2018 15:49:13 GMT -5
That matches my thoughts on it. I was thinking about the possibility of the zodiac signs being the locations of gates to different planes.
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