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Post by geneweigel on Mar 16, 2018 7:44:16 GMT -5
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 16, 2018 10:28:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the link, I never read that article before.
Anyone ever read SHRIKE: THE COMING AVENGER (1991) by EGG? I've never even seen a copy. Was it even published? This is what shows on Amazon.com:
Paperback Publisher: Berkley Pub Group (September 1, 1991) Language: English ISBN-10: 042511726X ISBN-13: 978-0425117262
If it was never published, that's kind of weird that it would have ISBN numbers listed.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 16, 2018 10:41:31 GMT -5
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 16, 2018 11:28:17 GMT -5
According to Wikipedia: "Publishers purchase ISBNs from an affiliate of the International ISBN Agency. An ISBN is assigned to each edition and variation (except reprintings) of a book." So, it may be one of those rare cases where there was a deal with the publisher and it was going through the process with some steps completed but got aborted prior to actually getting printed.
As far as EGG's comments on DRAGONLANCE, yeah, nothing surprising there. He's made many remarks over the years about fiction being plot-driven but gaming being player-driven (or should be). The DRAGONLANCE modules, although they looked nice, had that weird assumption that players would want to assume the roles of the DRAGONLANCE heroes and re-enact the books scene for scene.
Who has ever wanted to do that?
OTOH, you can't just be a purely neutral referee, more is required of a DM. I think the best DMing hits a sweet spot of providing some rumors and hooks that have the potential to develop into a story, with player actions anticipated but not scripted, and a strong ability to improvise. EGG may be implying something similar in the article when he's talking about the difference between computer games and human DMs and "the infinity of the human brain and its capacity for creativity." Certainly he had many colorful stories about "winging it!"
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Post by Scott on Mar 16, 2018 12:24:40 GMT -5
Gary was consistent with his comments on story driven adventures, and DL probably leaves an especially bad taste in is mouth since it had such a push at TSR as he was losing control. My guess on SHRIKE: THE COMING AVENGER is that it was tied up with New Infinities, and when they went under there were probably legal/debt reasons to shelf it.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 16, 2018 12:35:13 GMT -5
All I can remember was everyone making kender at some point and it was just pure acute mocking goofery then absolutely nothing game-wise but people asking about getting more of the upcoming material as if it was going to have a payoff.
In DRAGON #101 (SEPTEMBER 1985), the article ALL ABOUT THE KENDER by Roger E. Moore at the end of the article it credited Harold Johnson but that immediately didn't ring right with me as Harold was the 83 boxed set guy who Gary thought was "one of the good guys" (at least that is what he told me.). So I just spotted this on Wikipedia as to who created exactly what:
Can I get a bucket? BLARRFFFF!!!
Okay, so this leads to the inevitable question I must ask: Is the Johnson halfling concept "savage, warrior children, ever curious, ever alert" still salvageable? Or is it too far gone?
Lets say the Blume's fortunes ran out sooner rather than later and everything went Gary's way. Hypothetically, is there something viable that would have "Greyhawked" out of that? The GH game material/novels mention halflings constantly so it would have to be an offshoot.
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Post by Scott on Mar 16, 2018 12:42:56 GMT -5
Oh man, I must have suppressed all of those traumatic Kender memories. I haven't thought about them in years. They were terrible, and for a while Kender PCs were popping up everywhere. The more I reminisce, the more I realize DL was much worse than I remember.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 16, 2018 13:07:20 GMT -5
I'm glad I missed all of that!
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 16, 2018 13:25:12 GMT -5
I just shot Johnson a message about this. Lets see what turns up.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 16, 2018 15:10:13 GMT -5
So Gary had two Shrike novels finished by the fall of 88 (not just the one that briefly resurfaced a couple years ago). Even though Gary wasn’t much of a novelist it’s a shame these were never released. Also interesting to see Castle Dunfalcon vol. 1 by Gary and Steve Sullivan (the former TSR artist?) scheduled for a spring 1989 release. If he’d set a release date it must have been reasonably far along in writing and development. I wonder how it compared to what was later done as Castle Zagyg.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 16, 2018 16:00:15 GMT -5
If there was a comprehensive database of Gygax efforts there would be so much more interest in future products. Lejendary Adventure registers nothing on the interest scale from what was put forth in the TLG repackaged essentials books. Altogether the prior releases have some interesting stuff in there and while the art was shitty it wasn't fruity tooty shitty. The biggest problem with LA races in the original books is that they are not illustrated correctly at all and it all seems repulsive. I told Gary that I hate the illustration but liked the books. So he immediately rectified this by handing it over to Arkansas. You know its like there seems to be a consensus that Gail Gygax is a harpy no matter what she says or does. Its like one more wall of stupidity for fans from my angle to deal with. How can we be fans of a panned out offer for a film franchise as a final resting place for what we hoped for? The only real undiluted interest to ignite our spark towards lost Gygax products would be total reunification of the Gord with the D&D while unhatching some massive hidden files on the public that we're not aware of. Highly unlikely.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 16, 2018 23:28:39 GMT -5
Here is an interesting related quote from DL5 DRAGONS OF MYSTERY (1984): I wonder if this had something to do with Grenadier's Dragon of the Month series that were coming out in 1984-1985? They discontinued with Grenadier starting in 1983 and this Dragon of the Month club looked like it must have took time to set up because they were light years ahead of what they did before and each one was straight up D&D. The 84-85 original Series One Dragon of the Months : 2501 Black Dragon 2502 Red Dragon 2503 White Dragon 2504 Brass Dragon 2505 Green Dragon 2506 Silver Dragon 2507 Blue Dragon 2508 Copper Dragon 2509 Bronze Dragon 2510 Gold Dragon 2511 Platinum Dragon 2512 Spectral Dragon The Dragon Lord Page that has images: www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/?title=Dragon_Lords_-_Dragon_of_the_Month#VOUCHERMy brother had most of these but I don't know what happened to them I think I have pieces of some of them in a box. I only bought the white dragon because I didn't have anything that looked like a white dragon.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 17, 2018 0:01:27 GMT -5
I was comparing kender to halflings and its pure shit. Its a lot of arbitrariness not any negatives. Just super halfling.
For the Harold Johnson "kinder" variant I would suggest a simple keeping the fear part (See below) but swapped with the CON bonus for magic/poison (which the kender gets better than the halfling automatic +4 regardles of CON) to keep it fresh and real:
Also, I would imagine them having swapped INT and WIS scores as well as DEX and CON scores for minimums and maximums.
And have them cohabit with people perhaps to keep them "streetwise" as well keep them in the D&D real world zone and not the Elmore mega-valley universe.
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 17, 2018 13:35:47 GMT -5
I don't think Kender are worth salvaging. They were such obvious "not-Hobbits" that it was ridiculous. If you don't want your fantasy world to seem like a Tolkien-clone, then don't include them. I don't think I ever played the DRAGONLANCE modules (except maybe the first one, which may just seem familiar since I've owned it for so long), but I did read the books and I liked them well enough at the time. They were disposable page-turners that had some stuff I hated like Kender and gully dwarves but also had decent action scenes and an intriguing character in Raistlin. In the mid-80's I wanted more Tolkien and I loved playing D&D so of course I was going to gobble up anything fantasy published by TSR! Discernment wouldn't come until later. There was a podcast interview from Tracy Hickman from a few years ago, where he talked about how DRAGONLANCE got started: saveordie.info/?p=463In the EGG article I just noticed he said that "Necropolis" was set in the Kingdom of AEgypt on "Yarth"! Isn't that the world Kothar is on, in the Gardner Fox stories? Interesting how EGG plugs the DARKSWORD RPG at the end of the article. I read that trilogy, which was another offering by Weis & Hickman, when it first came out in paperback. But I didn't know there was a game. That fantasy world was more original and distinct that the DRAGONLANCE world, but by the time I finished that series I was done with Weis & Hickman fiction. I must have been developing some discernment by then. I think the next fantasy series I read after that was the LYONESSE trilogy by Jack Vance.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 17, 2018 14:45:01 GMT -5
3E D&D’s halflings were de-hobbited and come off sort of non-cutesy kender. Harold Johnson was still at WotC and worked on development of 3E (though I believe he had let before it was released) so maybe some of his pre-Hickman kinder concept got recycled there.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 17, 2018 16:48:15 GMT -5
I don't think Kender are worth salvaging. They were such obvious "not-Hobbits" that it was ridiculous. If you don't want your fantasy world to seem like a Tolkien-clone, then don't include them. I don't think I ever played the DRAGONLANCE modules (except maybe the first one, which may just seem familiar since I've owned it for so long), but I did read the books and I liked them well enough at the time. They were disposable page-turners that had some stuff I hated like Kender and gully dwarves but also had decent action scenes and an intriguing character in Raistlin. In the mid-80's I wanted more Tolkien and I loved playing D&D so of course I was going to gobble up anything fantasy published by TSR! Discernment wouldn't come until later. There was a podcast interview from Tracy Hickman from a few years ago, where he talked about how DRAGONLANCE got started: saveordie.info/?p=463So Tracy Hickman was an ultra-conservative bum? That sounds about right! Youch, he is a little annoying sounding. I love how he is giving honorifics to the trash men of TSr like Cook and Grubb. I couldn't listen to it anymore. Did he mention Johnson? In the EGG article I just noticed he said that "Necropolis" was set in the Kingdom of AEgypt on "Yarth"! Isn't that the world Kothar is on, in the Gardner Fox stories? Thats from the end of the Gord series DANCE OF DEMONS last page: I know Interesting how EGG plugs the DARKSWORD RPG at the end of the article. I read that trilogy, which was another offering by Weis & Hickman, when it first came out in paperback. But I didn't know there was a game. That fantasy world was more original and distinct that the DRAGONLANCE world, but by the time I finished that series I was done with Weis & Hickman fiction. I must have been developing some discernment by then. I think the next fantasy series I read after that was the LYONESSE trilogy by Jack Vance. I don't remember the DARK SWORD series its a blur.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 17, 2018 16:51:58 GMT -5
3E D&D’s halflings were de-hobbited and come off sort of non-cutesy kender. Harold Johnson was still at WotC and worked on development of 3E (though I believe he had let before it was released) so maybe some of his pre-Hickman kinder concept got recycled there. I think his heart might have been in the right place at the time and it was processed by the touchy feely performance artist they had on staff. Plus people were doing urban demi-humans and there is kind of a city gnome legend in the city of Cologne in Germany so maybe thats what he was aiming at with the "Hoff" and the kennings.
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Post by Merkholz on Mar 21, 2018 3:03:43 GMT -5
I Think there are some salvegeable dungeons in the DL modules. I liked the city turned on its head in the first one, just remove those dirty, comedic runts and replace them with flesh-eating grimlocks!
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 21, 2018 11:14:32 GMT -5
I Think there are some salvegeable dungeons in the DL modules. I liked the city turned on its head in the first one, just remove those dirty, comedic runts and replace them with flesh-eating grimlocks! Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. Remember when the isomorphic maps were all the rage and everyone thought they were the future of all mapping? There were nice, in a way. They would certainly helpful in building 3D terrain such as with Hirst Arts. I like dungeons with a strong vertical element involved. The dungeon in DL1 was a memorable setting and I've always loved the theme of buried or lost cities... that's very pulp.
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