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Post by geneweigel on Apr 13, 2018 8:20:01 GMT -5
I always think of Murlynd as an expression of an obstinate and perhaps manipulative player who just would rather be doing something else so the origin plays out in my mind like: What do you want to play? I DON'T KNOW. WHO IS THE MOST POWERFUL? WHO CAN KILL A DRAGON WITH ONE SHOT? A WIZARD? YEAH, WHAT DO YOU CALL IT? A MAGIC-USER? AND CALL MINE "MERLIN". (2 weeks later) THIS MAGIC GUY SUCKS. Just give it a chance. (3 weeks later) A CHANCE TO GO TO ANY OF THESE FIFTY MAGICAL PAINTINGS? THE OLD WEST!!! I JUMP IN!!! You're all instantly teleported with him. <<<<All the other players groan>>>> (9 weeks later) I CREATED A SPELL CALLED "MORE BULLETS". I don't know... COME ON JUST HUMOR ME. I'M NOT TOO HALE REMEMBER? COUGH! COUGH! Naw its too offsetting we're developing something here. AND THERE IS THE QUESTION OF THE INVESTMENT WHICH MY WIFE THINKS IS RETARDED...Alright, we'll test it... we'll call it Merlin's Thoughtful Bullet Replication...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Apr 13, 2018 8:21:41 GMT -5
A connection feels like it is there, as evidence is increased...remember giant tick = "tacit King", meaning it is to be understood without saying it that Hommlet has connection with works of Stephen King riding in the background...it is stated of the giant tick, 'This horror came in through the chimney.' A nudge that we are supposed to look to a horror genre connection...?
Robert Browning used dramatic monologue, in which meaning is not what the speaker voluntarily reveals, but what he inadvertently gives away, usually while rationalizing past actions or special pleading his case to a silent auditor...
Remember, "DUNGEON MODULE T(EE) 1(ONE)" = "teen endued monologue"
It is to be expected, therefore, that EGG would not intentionally reveal a Stephen King connection...
It is apparent there are several other Hommlet connections: Sir Arthur Conan Ignatius Doyle, Paracelsus, Of Mice and Men, Arthurian legend, To Kill A Mockingbird, etc.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Apr 13, 2018 8:31:01 GMT -5
I always think of Murlynd as an expression of an obstinate and perhaps manipulative player who just would rather be doing something else so the origin plays out in my mind like: What do you want to play? I DON'T KNOW. WHO IS THE MOST POWERFUL? WHO CAN KILL A DRAGON WITH ONE SHOT? A WIZARD? YEAH, WHAT DO YOU CALL IT? A MAGIC-USER? AND CALL MINE "MERLIN". (2 weeks later) THIS MAGIC GUY SUCKS. Just give it a chance. (3 weeks later) A CHANCE TO GO TO ANY OF THESE FIFTY MAGICAL PAINTINGS? THE OLD WEST!!! I JUMP IN!!! You're all instantly teleported with him. <<<<All the other players groan>>>> (9 weeks later) I CREATED A SPELL CALLED "MORE BULLETS". I don't know... COME ON JUST HUMOR ME. I'M NOT TOO HALE REMEMBER? COUGH! COUGH! Naw its too offsetting we're developing something here. AND THERE IS THE QUESTION OF THE INVESTMENT WHICH MY WIFE THINKS IS RETARDED...Alright, we'll test it... we'll call it Merlin's Thoughtful Bullet Replication... To Kill A Mockingbird's character Dill {patterned from Harper Lee's childhood friend, Truman Capote} was referred to within the novel as a 'pocket Merlin'.... And it's possible that the famous cover for Truman Capote's "In Cold Blood" is in view via the platinum pin set with a ruby found under a skull in the giant crayfish in pool area of the moathouse - and both the giant crayfish and skull are prominently displayed on the cover of the original VOH monochrome module...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Apr 13, 2018 8:53:18 GMT -5
So, for the sake of discussion, if it were true that a connection exists between Stephen King's multiverse and EGG's WOG, what are the implications of that?
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 13, 2018 9:55:43 GMT -5
I don't think I heard him mention it. Although the CREEPSHOW movie clearly showed King was directly influenced by EC comics and so was Gary. So that might be a big connection.
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 13, 2018 9:56:00 GMT -5
It just ties into the idea that the Prime Material plane has potentially infinite alternate universes one can visit, in particular with higher level play, to keep the game from getting stale or to appeal to the interests of particular players. Since Don Kaye was a fan of the Western genre and helped develop the BOOT HILL game, EGG may have created an adventure in which Don's character Murlynd could visit such a world and have adventures there... possibly with the dual purpose of play-testing the new rules! Stephen King's worlds are even more that one could possibly visit, and the world Roland is from is itself a mash-up of Old West and Arthurian, and Roland has adventures through the multiverse just like Murlynd.
From p. 120 of the PH:
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Apr 13, 2018 15:33:45 GMT -5
In bold print on the original VOH module cover, and repeated on the first page of the module leaflet: "Dungeon Module T1" It does say in bold, "The Village of Hommlet" directly below this on the next line. It's a curious juxtaposition - perhaps worth looking at more closely? How are the contents of this publication, primarily a detailed village of Hommlet, referred to solely as a dungeon module? Maybe we should break this apart to look at "Dungeon Module T1" by itself: Dungeon Module T(ee)1(one) = "monologue: teen-endued" {EGG speaking alone: endued (indued/endowed) invested (clothed) and provided (gifted, as per a dowry) with qualities and traits pertaining to teens}? So the "T" module marker is not necessarily standing solely for "temple?" It is standing also for "teen?" Which is why this adventure module is chock full of "coming of age tales" background contents?" So when EGG ran this pre-published adventure play test with his children and some others (mostly pre-teen and teen audience), and afterwards when he published to a primarily pre-teen and teen audience, he purposefully designed this adventure with some teen coming of age contents that would be recognized, it's woven in throughout: for example, hidden treasure in the hollow of a tree = To Kill a Mockingbird. There are many examples of this throughout, and I'm sure I haven't found them all? Some to consider within this interwoven text (and in continuation TOEE): (1) To Kill a Mockingbird (2) Of Mice and Men (3) The Outsiders by S.E. Hinton (authored as teenager)? (4) Sir Gawain & the Green Knight (5) Parzival (6) Comics containing the elementals, overlord/mockingbird/Paracelsus (7) Shane (8) Hamlet (9) In Cold Blood? (10) Due to the possibility of EGG proxy in VOH as local leatherworker, who had 12-year old eldest = Ernie Gygax in 1971, what are possible film/literature/comics connections from 1971? Big Jake starring John Wayne? The Beguiled starring Clint Eastwood (seven women + one elder man)? That Was Then, This Is Now by S.E. Hinton? Wonderland by Joyce Carol Oates? McCabe & Mrs. Miller? MacBeth? A Clockwork Orange? The French Connection? Straw Dogs? For comics, "House of Mystery?", "Superboy?", "Red Wolf?" Note that Jaroo Ashstaff, agent of Gnarley Forest {"Eastwood" from VOH perspective} Druids? This next one eluded me for a time: The Village of Hommlet = immolate + hell + v + Goethe Johann Wolfgang von Goethe..."Prometheus" in view...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Apr 13, 2018 16:11:56 GMT -5
In bold print on the original VOH module cover, and repeated on the first page of the module leaflet: "Dungeon Module T1" It does say in bold, "The Village of Hommlet" directly below this on the next line. It's a curious juxtaposition - perhaps worth looking at more closely? How are the contents of this publication, primarily a detailed village of Hommlet, referred to solely as a dungeon module? Maybe we should break this apart to look at "Dungeon Module T1" by itself: Dungeon Module T(ee)1(one) = "monologue: teen-endued" {EGG speaking alone: endued (indued/endowed) invested (clothed) and provided (gifted, as per a dowry) with qualities and traits pertaining to teens}? So the "T" module marker is not necessarily standing solely for "temple?" It is standing also for "teen?" Which is why this adventure module is chock full of "coming of age tales" background contents?" So when EGG ran this pre-published adventure play test with his children and some others (mostly pre-teen and teen audience), and afterwards when he published to a primarily pre-teen and teen audience, he purposefully designed this adventure with some teen coming of age contents that would be recognized, it's woven in throughout: for example, hidden treasure in the hollow of a tree = To Kill a Mockingbird. There are many examples of this throughout, and I'm sure I haven't found them all? Some to consider within this interwoven text (and in continuation TOEE): (1) To Kill a Mockingbird (2) Of Mice and Men (3) The Outsiders by S.E. Hinton (authored as teenager)? (4) Sir Gawain & the Green Knight (5) Parzival (6) Comics containing the elementals, overlord/mockingbird/Paracelsus (7) Shane (8) Hamlet (9) In Cold Blood? (10) Due to the possibility of EGG proxy in VOH as local leatherworker, who had 12-year old eldest = Ernie Gygax in 1971, what are possible film/literature/comics connections from 1971? Big Jake starring John Wayne? The Beguiled starring Clint Eastwood (seven women + one elder man)? That Was Then, This Is Now by S.E. Hinton? Wonderland by Joyce Carol Oates? McCabe & Mrs. Miller? MacBeth? A Clockwork Orange? The French Connection? Straw Dogs? For comics, "House of Mystery?", "Superboy?", "Red Wolf?" Note that Jaroo Ashstaff, agent of Gnarley Forest {"Eastwood" from VOH perspective} Druids? This next one eluded me for a time: The Village of Hommlet = immolate + hell + v + Goethe Johann Wolfgang von Goethe... " The Sorrows of Young Werther" - was it really a suicide or did church desire to confiscate the deceased's property and possessions? What if Y'dey's secret cache was illegitimately obtained by church that dishonored the death of the victim...?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Apr 13, 2018 16:16:08 GMT -5
Urfaust...leading to Doctor Faustus
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Apr 13, 2018 16:46:26 GMT -5
Ok, here is what I believe may be an EGG tip that I have been using to investigate and analyze:
Notes for the dungeon master only
"As a matter of course throughout this module, all insertional material which is for your information is in BOLD FACE or enclosed by parentheses."
In dramatic monologue, this is an example of a key statement to pay close attention to...there are many others...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jul 10, 2018 15:05:57 GMT -5
A connection feels like it is there, as evidence is increased...remember giant tick = "tacit King", meaning it is to be understood without saying it that Hommlet has connection with works of Stephen King riding in the background...it is stated of the giant tick, 'This horror came in through the chimney.' A nudge that we are supposed to look to a horror genre connection...? Robert Browning used dramatic monologue, in which meaning is not what the speaker voluntarily reveals, but what he inadvertently gives away, usually while rationalizing past actions or special pleading his case to a silent auditor... Remember, "DUNGEON MODULE T(EE) 1(ONE)" = "teen endued monologue" It is to be expected, therefore, that EGG would not intentionally reveal a Stephen King connection... It is apparent there are several other Hommlet connections: Sir Arthur Conan Ignatius Doyle, Paracelsus, Of Mice and Men, Arthurian legend, To Kill A Mockingbird, etc. All right, to get back to this: Cuthbert is mentioned in the Robert Browning poem, "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came". Robert Browning mastered dramatic monologue. Cuthbert Allgood is a character by Stephen King first appearing in "The Dark Tower: The Gunslinger". 19 is a key number for Stephen King and his Dark Tower series: he started writing Dark Tower at 19, and wanted to create a LoTR-type epic (which has 19 rings of power, with the 20th, Sauron's ring, to rule them all). Location #19 in VOH is Black Jay's cottage. Black Jay has three dogs with hit points of 7, 5, and 4. If we consider Dark Tower as King's first novel he started working on, then we have novels/novella (not including King's novels published under his pseudonym 'Richard Bachman': Novel #4 = "The Shining" Novel #5 = "The Stand" Novella #7 = "The Mist" Each of these works is connected within the Dark Tower multiverse... Another key work of Stephen King's that was published later is an 'invert' of T1 = "IT", likewise connected within the Dark Tower multiverse... The giant tick in the moathouse has 19 hit points. Giant tick = "tacit King". So, I would like to include in the greater VOH locale within WOG this Dark Tower flavor - how best to make this happen? And how about T2 = TOEE? Was the cult intended to have roots derived from other (current at that time and/or future?) Stephen King's works when EGG published VOH in 1979? If so, which ones? Or did EGG intend instead to overlay other elements that were not necessarily in confluence with King?
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 10, 2018 17:31:13 GMT -5
Stephen King and Gary Gygax probably only have similar influences, which the immediate is comics, but classical and medieval, renaissance and neo-classical fictions are probably the main ties but also the folklore of monsters i.e. "Childe Roland", etc.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jul 10, 2018 17:38:48 GMT -5
Stephen King and Gary Gygax probably only have similar influences, which the immediate is comics, but classical and medieval, renaissance and neo-classical fictions are probably the main ties but also the folklore of monsters i.e. "Childe Roland", etc. Sure, that's certainly a possibility that's all it is...it is interesting to see some parallels between The Crimson King and Iuz for example...
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Post by GRWelsh on Jul 11, 2018 7:49:18 GMT -5
EGG was a voracious reader so I wouldn't be surprised if he read some Stephen King, but King isn't listed in the books that inspired him the most in the back of the DMG, and I don't remember him ever mentioning King. I don't see any causal links here. I think what Gene says is probably most likely: EGG and King had a lot of the same influences in the way of literature, horror comics of the 50's, mythology, etc. My first thought is that EGG was older, so if anything maybe he was the influence on King! But it is probably best to view them as contemporary peers who both read Poe, Lovecraft, EC Comics, etc.
I think if you want to hunt down causal sources, you may find more fertile ground with the likes of A. Merritt, Jack Vance, Fritz Leiber and others listed as his favorites. As EGG wrote in the DMG: "The most immediate influences upon AD&D were probably de Camp & Pratt, R. E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, H. P. Lovecraft, and A. Merritt..."
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 11, 2018 9:00:40 GMT -5
I actually talked with him for a while about Merritt's story BURN WITCH BURN! which really struck a nerve with me because it seemed like Merritt was talking to early 20th century versions of researchers, that I'm familiar with, to get the background for the story. Then we shifted to talking about whether or not troglodytes were based on the creatures from THE FACE IN THE ABYSS and he said somewhat but like everything it was a different time and comics and pulps were flowing into each other and sci-fi wasn't too far from fantasy either but as standards changed the appreciation/tributes were blurred.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jul 11, 2018 10:51:13 GMT -5
EGG was a voracious reader so I wouldn't be surprised if he read some Stephen King, but King isn't listed in the books that inspired him the most in the back of the DMG, and I don't remember him ever mentioning King. I don't see any causal links here. I think what Gene says is probably most likely: EGG and King had a lot of the same influences in the way of literature, horror comics of the 50's, mythology, etc. My first thought is that EGG was older, so if anything maybe he was the influence on King! But it is probably best to view them as contemporary peers who both read Poe, Lovecraft, EC Comics, etc. I think if you want to hunt down causal sources, you may find more fertile ground with the likes of A. Merritt, Jack Vance, Fritz Leiber and others listed as his favorites. As EGG wrote in the DMG: "The most immediate influences upon AD&D were probably de Camp & Pratt, R. E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, H. P. Lovecraft, and A. Merritt..." Gotcha, and thanks for the good feedback from you and Gene! It would be interesting to look into Stephen King's works, especially the Dark Tower multiverse works, to look for EGG influences within...Steven King used pseudonyms for years, so he knows how to keep a secret, and I would not be surprised if it were discovered even now that various EGG/SK connections exist in their respective works, and even the possibility of some past communications/correspondence betwixt these two? I suggest it could be tempered by EGG's own statements "The most immediate influences upon AD&D were probably..." and "...all of the above authors, as well as many not listed, certainly helped to shape the form of the game." As Gene has mentioned previously, there were some renowned archivists on the Appendix N list (example Gardner F. Fox), as well as you mentioned previously a non-Appendix N possible EGG influence (E. Nelson Bridwell) that also was a renowned archivist. EGG's genius certainly seemed to fit well with other polymaths amongst both the Appendix N list, and also not on it, that were mentioned by EGG (Paracelsus). If EGG delved dramatic monologue (along the lines of polymath Robert Browning in "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came") in T1, and if T1 has 'tacit King' elements, then it can be expected that EGG's background influences present in T1 are not directly stated, an example of this is Kobort & Turuko ala Lennie Small & George Milton from John Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men." There's no evidence of Steinbeck in Appendix N? In the end, it's a possible theory...I'm certainly not saying that it's the only possible theory, or that anything that I have brought up as possible theory is EGG doctrine..I don't know? But it's fun to dig and ask these questions and discuss with all of you! In the end, I will make decisions on impacts into the campaign I'm running, and I acknowledge it may take me down very different imaginative creative paths, that could deviate from what EGG originally had in mind with VOH/TOEE/etc. in WOG...? The content is such in T1 and elsewhere, that it seems EGG had some specifics imaginative/creative inspirational works (both Appendix N and also not) in mind that the astute can 'grok'...and through that investigation get at what lies beneath the surface...
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 11, 2018 12:07:05 GMT -5
Gary also was very much into weapons and armor like extremely. Whereas as me having a conversation with him I would fall on dead ends in that regard and have no idea what he was referring to so I had to dig into his recommendations, He said certain books were never in his scope like for example Spenser's Faerie Queene I had read priorly in the notion that it was some kind of D&D resource, and he said he never even looked at it but rather another sources. That was really disappointing to say the least!
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Post by GRWelsh on Jul 12, 2018 9:15:12 GMT -5
Medieval and Renaissance sources like THE FAERIE QUEENE, SIR GAWAIN AND THE GREEN KNIGHT, SIR ORFEO, etc. seem more like influences on Tolkien, C. Lewis and others who influenced EGG rather than direct influences on EGG himself. So much of that Middle Ages stuff is heavy on the allegory or even pure allegory that makes it difficult for modern readers to get into it -- I think we miss so many references that contemporary readers would get instantly. I like that stuff but it is difficult to connect it up to modern ideas about fantasy adventure.
"Remember the time Holiness defeated Error with the aid of Truth? Holiness and Truth both rolled natural 20s and dealt blows most mightie!"
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jul 12, 2018 10:27:14 GMT -5
EGG was a voracious reader so I wouldn't be surprised if he read some Stephen King, but King isn't listed in the books that inspired him the most in the back of the DMG, and I don't remember him ever mentioning King. I don't see any causal links here. I think what Gene says is probably most likely: EGG and King had a lot of the same influences in the way of literature, horror comics of the 50's, mythology, etc. My first thought is that EGG was older, so if anything maybe he was the influence on King! But it is probably best to view them as contemporary peers who both read Poe, Lovecraft, EC Comics, etc. I think if you want to hunt down causal sources, you may find more fertile ground with the likes of A. Merritt, Jack Vance, Fritz Leiber and others listed as his favorites. As EGG wrote in the DMG: "The most immediate influences upon AD&D were probably de Camp & Pratt, R. E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, H. P. Lovecraft, and A. Merritt..." Gotcha, and thanks for the good feedback from you and Gene! It would be interesting to look into Stephen King's works, especially the Dark Tower multiverse works, to look for EGG influences within...Steven King used pseudonyms for years, so he knows how to keep a secret, and I would not be surprised if it were discovered even now that various EGG/SK connections exist in their respective works, and even the possibility of some past communications/correspondence betwixt these two? I suggest it could be tempered by EGG's own statements "The most immediate influences upon AD&D were probably..." and "...all of the above authors, as well as many not listed, certainly helped to shape the form of the game." As Gene has mentioned previously, there were some renowned archivists on the Appendix N list (example Gardner F. Fox), as well as you mentioned previously a non-Appendix N possible EGG influence (E. Nelson Bridwell) that also was a renowned archivist. EGG's genius certainly seemed to fit well with other polymaths amongst both the Appendix N list, and also not on it, that were mentioned by EGG (Paracelsus). If EGG delved dramatic monologue (along the lines of polymath Robert Browning in "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came") in T1, and if T1 has 'tacit King' elements, then it can be expected that EGG's background influences present in T1 are not directly stated, an example of this is Kobort & Turuko ala Lennie Small & George Milton from John Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men." There's no evidence of Steinbeck in Appendix N? In the end, it's a possible theory...I'm certainly not saying that it's the only possible theory, or that anything that I have brought up as possible theory is EGG doctrine..I don't know? But it's fun to dig and ask these questions and discuss with all of you! In the end, I will make decisions on impacts into the campaign I'm running, and I acknowledge it may take me down very different imaginative creative paths, that could deviate from what EGG originally had in mind with VOH/TOEE/etc. in WOG...? The content is such in T1 and elsewhere, that it seems EGG had some specifics imaginative/creative inspirational works (both Appendix N and also not) in mind that the astute can 'grok'...and through that investigation get at what lies beneath the surface... I guess to state more clearly, I am re-reading and considering from the DMG EGG's "The Monster as Player Character" write-up. When I first read this as a twelve year-old, I had no idea why this content was included? Now, I think this section is critical, and important to read and think about in conjunction with Appendix N... Are the monsters in EGG's dungeon modules of largely unrealized greater significance/depth...? I am thinking so! The MM was the first core AD&D book printed to give monsters primacy...that means to me that the first consideration in EGG's dungeon modules are the monsters, where lies much mystery...
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 12, 2018 13:03:07 GMT -5
I think the behind the scenes was more curtainless/"theater in the round"/central staging in mindset early on in D&D and inadequacies of DMs produced this groupthink that bled back into the product with a leaning towards "pay no attention to that man behind the curtains" mentality. Rob Kuntz was telling me about someone playing a balrog. I think Scott was there.
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