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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 27, 2018 15:21:01 GMT -5
Ok, I am starting from the beginning of the VOH module to propose theory regarding development of this adventure module by EGG:
First background paragraph -
1) We have Hommlet noted as actually hamlet-sized, so I propose that we are to look at Hommlet first through the lens of Shakespeare's "Hamlet" play.
2) We have local parlance distinguishing Hommlet with the term "village." Here is where I propose a mash-up is in play: parlance + Hommlet = Palance + Thrommel. Let's pick up Thrommel later on, and turn instead to Palance, that I propose is an allusion to actor {Jack} Palance. So, let's think about a significant Palance movie in which his character is known as "Jack." How about Jack Wilson in the movie, "Shane?" What is the historical backdrop for this film? The Johnson County War/War on Powder River/Wyoming Range War. Is there a "Jack" in view within Hommlet? Black Jay contains "Jack"-{ably/alby} within, so I propose Black Jay as a Jack Wilson type character.
In conclusion, I propose that Hommlet's setting and characters are to be viewed first with an eye toward both "Hamlet" and "Shane."
If we accept the likelihood of a parlance/Hommlet mash-up, we have to be alert that EGG may repeat this with other linked pairs?
Any thoughts on this theory?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 27, 2018 17:36:06 GMT -5
Ok, I am starting from the beginning of the VOH module to propose theory regarding development of this adventure module by EGG: First background paragraph - 1) We have Hommlet noted as actually hamlet-sized, so I propose that we are to look at Hommlet first through the lens of Shakespeare's "Hamlet" play. 2) We have local parlance distinguishing Hommlet with the term "village." Here is where I propose a mash-up is in play: parlance + Hommlet = Palance + Thrommel. Let's pick up Thrommel later on, and turn instead to Palance, that I propose is an allusion to actor {Jack} Palance. So, let's think about a significant Palance movie in which his character is known as "Jack." How about Jack Wilson in the movie, "Shane?" What is the historical backdrop for this film? The Johnson County War/War on Powder River/Wyoming Range War. Is there a "Jack" in view within Hommlet? Black Jay contains "Jack" {-ably/-al-by} within, so I propose Black Jay as a Jack Wilson type character and/or an appositive reflection enlightening us to a local Jack Wilson type character = the dark hope of chaotic evil, Lareth the Beautiful {either a Shane type character in his own right or instead an appositional reflection to enlighten us about what is true to Black Jay}?. In conclusion, I propose that Hommlet's setting and characters are to be viewed first with an eye toward both "Hamlet" and "Shane." If we accept the likelihood of a parlance/Hommlet mash-up, we have to be alert that EGG may repeat this with other linked pairs? Any thoughts on this theory? Note: Shane slays Rufus in this movie... And also Stonewall {the Mason in VOH, or instead someone who is living behind the protection of a "stonewall" or their character nature is to "stonewall" = the VOH elder and his family? The chief cleric, Terjon? Black Jay? Ostler Gundigoot? Burne & Rufus? even the Druid of the Grove is anticipating forthcoming work to be done for him by the stone mason} ends up being slain by Jack Wilson? So as Shane and Jack Wilson are similar yet both loners and killers, is this parallel to Black Jay and Lareth? Is the historical figure of "Stonewall" {Jack}son intended to be in view here? Other nicknames for Lieutenant General Thomas Jonathan Jackson besides "Stonewall" were "Old Jack", "Old Blue Light", and "Tom Fool." Are we to be curious about "Stonewall" type characters in this adventure and to their possible "son of Jack" relational connections to others within this adventure? Is it possible that Lareth could be a thought long-lost son to someone within VOH such as Black Jay?
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Feb 27, 2018 17:52:59 GMT -5
Any thoughts on this theory? Honestly, this whole line of name-based theorizing and inquiry seems like a completely wrong-headed and pointless waste of time and effort to me, and I feel certain that all of the patterns, references, and insights you're developing based on it are at best completely coincidental. I hate to poo-poo on someone else's fun, which is why I haven't said this previously, but I really don't buy any of it at all.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 27, 2018 17:57:21 GMT -5
Any thoughts on this theory? Honestly, this whole line of name-based theorizing and inquiry seems like a completely wrong-headed and pointless waste of time and effort to me, and I feel certain that all of the patterns, references, and insights you're developing based on it are at best completely coincidental. I hate to poo-poo on someone else's fun, which is why I haven't said this previously, but I really don't buy any of it at all. Ok, thank you for the honest feedback, I appreciate it!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 27, 2018 18:04:15 GMT -5
Any thoughts on this theory? Honestly, this whole line of name-based theorizing and inquiry seems like a completely wrong-headed and pointless waste of time and effort to me, and I feel certain that all of the patterns, references, and insights you're developing based on it are at best completely coincidental. I hate to poo-poo on someone else's fun, which is why I haven't said this previously, but I really don't buy any of it at all. I sincerely respect your viewpoint on this, and that I may be entirely wrong-headed!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 27, 2018 18:24:38 GMT -5
I readily admit I lack...I don't have first hand knowledge by having had a working relationship with EGG...and the questions and proposed theories I have had may be simply annoyances on this discussion board?
In any case, I have benefitted by reading through all of your posts on this board and discussions here. I'm really just a rusty old DM, that is having fun after a very long hiatus
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 27, 2018 21:50:03 GMT -5
I readily admit I lack...I don't have first hand knowledge by having had a working relationship with EGG...and the questions and proposed theories I have had may be simply annoyances on this discussion board? In any case, I have benefitted by reading through all of your posts on this board and discussions here. I'm really just a rusty old DM, that is having fun after a very long hiatus Its interesting because its like a wave of thoughts coming at us. Some might be off the mark but its "all for the good of the country" to be in Applied Greyhawk. I scan through stuff super fast though and comment when I'm sparked.
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Post by Merkholz on Feb 28, 2018 3:31:39 GMT -5
The mind is a marvelous thing - who's to say what goes on its convoluted passages. Even if Gary didn't use names and connections consciously doesn't mean he wasn't inspired or influenced unknowingly. Some of your theories are, however, rather farfetched and unlikely to be corroborated.
I Think, though, that you have to choose between two paths - that of a Gygax scholar, which means that you have to do a lot of research in order to back up your theories and maybe never getting an answer, or that of a DM, which means that you take the text and make of it your own, just as Gary intended. Who knows what hidden meanings or influences can be garnered from VoH - but if you as a DM get inspired and energized by these theories then use that to enhance your Campaign. I have noticed that you are very thorough and I've been inspired by your theories to enhance my own campaign even though there are bits and pieces that doesn't ring true to me - those I discard. So, IMO carry on doing what you think is fun and share it if you will.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 28, 2018 5:07:16 GMT -5
I readily admit I lack...I don't have first hand knowledge by having had a working relationship with EGG...and the questions and proposed theories I have had may be simply annoyances on this discussion board? In any case, I have benefitted by reading through all of your posts on this board and discussions here. I'm really just a rusty old DM, that is having fun after a very long hiatus Its interesting because its like a wave of thoughts coming at us. Some might be off the mark but its "all for the good of the country" to be in Applied Greyhawk. I scan through stuff super fast though and comment when I'm sparked. [br Thanks, Gene! It is true I think in imaginative waves, so if it's coming across that way, it's because that's how it is just so striking hitting me. I'm sure I have many off the mark theories, but am glad if some of these thoughts I share are interesting and spark yours and others' ideas!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 28, 2018 5:54:58 GMT -5
The mind is a marvelous thing - who's to say what goes on its convoluted passages. Even if Gary didn't use names and connections consciously doesn't mean he wasn't inspired or influenced unknowingly. Some of your theories are, however, rather farfetched and unlikely to be corroborated. I Think, though, that you have to choose between two paths - that of a Gygax scholar, which means that you have to do a lot of research in order to back up your theories and maybe never getting an answer, or that of a DM, which means that you take the text and make of it your own, just as Gary intended. Who knows what hidden meanings or influences can be garnered from VoH - but if you as a DM get inspired and energized by these theories then use that to enhance your Campaign. I have noticed that you are very thorough and I've been inspired by your theories to enhance my own campaign even though there are bits and pieces that doesn't ring true to me - those I discard. So, IMO carry on doing what you think is fun and share it if you will. Thanks, Merkholz, for your thoughts! I appreciate your encouragement to continue and am glad you can find some inspiration in my often far-fetched thoughts while discarding what doesn't ring true! I certainly cannot pretend as to be a Gygax scholar, he vastly outstrips my intellect and I have too many lacking gaps that I need help from others both smarter than I and who knew him well! It's both faster and more fun to post and discuss on this board, to dig into various theories/ideas, because, you are right, my overriding objective is to stay true to EGG's direction to make these adventures my own, and for my campaign participants to have great fun! I feel like there is great benefit to achieving this {above} purpose by digging in as deeply as I possibly can to understanding EGG's adventure locales and his creative methods! And if I were to do this all on my own wits, I would not get near as far as I do posting and discussing here! And I need to keep developing fast, because the campaign is rolling along strongly and relentlessly. And the feedback is candid and invaluable! Peeps here know from deep experiences EGG and his creations, and certainly let me know how I am off the mark and why. I am learning! I ran Greyhawk campaigns in my youth through roughly 1984. I just started a new Greyhawk campaign a few months ago - that's a lot if time lapse and accumulated rust as a DM! And I've missed a lot in the intervening years. I'm hoping an old dog can learn new tricks, and that with help here from you and others, I can learn to improve upon the Greyhawk campaign adventuring I enjoyed so much 35+ years ago to make it even more fun for the current PCs!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 28, 2018 12:34:53 GMT -5
Is it known or theorized any specific sources of inspiration EGG had in mind when developing the temple of elemental evil?
I was continuing to dig into background within VOH, and the path I went down led to the Oise/Oise River/Verberie region in Northern France {north of Paris}, where the Beauvais Cathedral is located. Is this a potential source of inspiration for EGG for the temple?
Also found in this region are both the Chateau de Pierrefonds and Chateau de Chantilly - would EGG have gathered inspiration from these as well, either to design the temple, or as other locales near the temple?
On the south bank of the Ois River, Verberie = tie to Verb(obonc) + (Lake) Erie? Conflating Verbobonc/Verberie to once being on the shore of a Great Lake/the Lake of Unknown Depths, Nyr Dyv?
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 1, 2018 9:04:23 GMT -5
Sure, the French influence is possible, especially when considering the concept of an 'evil' looking cathedral with gargoyles, and of course the catacombs below Paris are inspirational as well. But, I found another connection... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementals_(DC_Comics)They first appeared on the Super Friends in 1978. T1 The Village of Hommlet was published in 1979. Coincidence?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 1, 2018 10:19:27 GMT -5
Sure, the French influence is possible, especially when considering the concept of an 'evil' looking cathedral with gargoyles, and of course the catacombs below Paris are inspirational as well. But, I found another connection... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementals_(DC_Comics)They first appeared on the Super Friends in 1978. T1 The Village of Hommlet was published in 1979. Coincidence? Fascinating connection! I scanned through some other issues in this series, and found some interesting things: 1) Previous issue #13 has only appearance for the villain, "Mole" = "Elmo" in VOH? If this is a connection, does it imply that Elmo is not only a "mole" for the Viscount of Verbobonc, but also secretly a villain of some sort? 2) Some previous series issues have the villain, "Grax", is this a potential insert proxy for EGG within this comic series, or something else? Was EGG in correspondence/communication with some DC Comics staff working on this series at this time?
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 1, 2018 10:20:11 GMT -5
That actually might be. The "elementals" in the SUPERFRIENDS episode were created by E. Nelson Bridwell who was a comics superfan in the time of Gary's age of reading who later became a comics writer. Bridwell also wrote numerous letters to sci-fi magazines including the one that Gary has a letter in, the Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction:
The elemental creatures (undne, sylph, gnome, & salamander) are well known to fantasists from any number of neo-classical reference citing medieval alchemy but what if there is a comic source that Gygax and Bridwell both recall?
Bridwell was an exceptional archivist too.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 1, 2018 10:32:51 GMT -5
Sure, the French influence is possible, especially when considering the concept of an 'evil' looking cathedral with gargoyles, and of course the catacombs below Paris are inspirational as well. But, I found another connection... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementals_(DC_Comics)They first appeared on the Super Friends in 1978. T1 The Village of Hommlet was published in 1979. Coincidence? Another interesting villain in this series is "Menagerie Man" who stores miniatures of shrunken wild animals in compartments in his belt, unleashing and enlarging them to serve as his minions at a moments notice? Sounds similar to figurines of "wondrous" power? Falrinth has one, an ebony fly?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 1, 2018 11:15:15 GMT -5
Bridwell took Jack Miller's idea of a group of incompetent heroes, which Jack had titled "The Inferior Four," and created five heroes to change it to "The Inferior Five."
Of course there is a prominent "miller" within VOH, Mytch, and he is a member of the elder's council...
And there are "jacks" inundating the VOH module text: "jack/jacks" of ale, ring mail "jack", leather "jack/jacks", "jack"-of-all-trades" {the leather worker that may be an EGG proxy?}. Black Jay another possible "Jack?"
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 1, 2018 13:07:52 GMT -5
That actually might be. The "elementals" in the SUPERFRIENDS episode were created by E. Nelson Bridwell who was a comics superfan in the time of Gary's age of reading who later became a comics writer. Bridwell also wrote numerous letters to sci-fi magazines including the one that Gary has a letter in, the Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction: The elemental creatures (undne, sylph, gnome, & salamander) are well known to fantasists from any number of neo-classical reference citing medieval alchemy but what if there is a comic source that Gygax and Bridwell both recall? Bridwell was an exceptional archivist too. Maybe look back to DC Comics original "Secret Six" for the comic source? Look back to Lex Luthor as Mockingbird in Secret Six? Lex Luthor as also affiliated with Injustice Gang? Lex Luthor as affiliated with Secret Society of Super Villains? Black Jay is a {not}-well-bird, a proxy for "Bridwell" in VOH? Did Bridwell have lung cancer when EGG wrote VOH? Various VOH buildings/people are titled/commented in VOH as "well"-kept or "well." Who is "Mockingbird" in VOH? Is Harper Lee's "To Kill a Mockingbird" also in view as an influence in VOH/TOEE? Gems are prominent in the adventures, are we to think of the character, Jem? Elmo the Scout, as like the character, Scout? Atticus = catsuit, the captain of the militia has a "suit" of armor, his first name could be Atticus? That's why there are "ghouls" at the moathouse, hinting at Boo Radley? Note that Scout, Jean Louise, similar to jalouise and jealousy. Elmo is jealous of his older brother? Elmo is shuttered/louvered window for both for adventurers to "see" and to join/take direct action with adventurers at near to nothing cost, while most of the other VOH residents have ulterior or malevolent motives or else live in fear, not willing for direct involvement? That's why the traders' establishment has many shuttered windows/jalouises? Mockingbird = gnomic {resembling or containing aphorisms} + k-bird {Jayhawk?}. The leatherworker in VOH possible proxy for EGG, "Jack-of-all-trades" starts a well-known aphorism. That also reveals Mytch the miller, "suspicious with good cause" = a loose reference to suspicion aphorisms of Shakespeare: "suspicion shall be all stuck full of eyes" and "suspicion always haunts the guilty mind?" VOH personages, including the leaders amongst the elder's council, are mostly vigilantly consumed with suspicion, but for the most part very reluctant direct actors? Of course some of the VOH people who are consumed with suspicion are that way because they are GUILTY? Guilty of what? Is Mytch guilty of something? Black Jay? Y'dey? Brother Smyth?
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 1, 2018 13:30:07 GMT -5
The superhero connection was dead at the late 50s and up for Gary's reading of Superman and other hero comics according to him. Though any EC like he kept checking out.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 1, 2018 18:37:36 GMT -5
Perhaps the Holcomb, Kansas Clutter family quadruple murder that Harper Lee and Truman Capote traveled to the aftermath together, as per "In Cold Blood" book and movie?
The cover of the book shows a hatpin with what appeared originally as a red drop of blood = found under skull at the moathouse crayfish pool?
Perpetrated by "Dick" and "Smith."
That's why Mytch the miller is cool toward strangers, suspicious with good cause?
And other mass killings ala Walker family murders and/or Manson's Helter Skelter could be coming into view as adventures proceed VOH and TOEE?
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 1, 2018 18:52:31 GMT -5
I forgot to post the link to the FACEBOOK post about the science fiction magazine letter by Gary that Ernie Gygax posted a few days ago:
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