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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 6, 2018 12:39:49 GMT -5
In the VOH moathouse, we learn of the chaotic evil trifecta of Lubash, Lareth, and Lolth.
It is interesting to me the pattern that each of their names starts with "L" and ends with "h" - what is the significance here?
The Latrodectus genus of black widow spiders has many species, with three of note to look into:
1) Latrodectus hasseltii {SE Asia to Australia, New Zealand} 2) Latrodectus hesperus {North America, Israel} 3) Latrodectus hystrix {Yemen, Socotra}
Here is some Wikipedia information about 1):
1) Known as the redback spider, origination South Australian or adjacent Western Australian deserts. Adult female easily recognized prominent red stripe on the upper side of her spherical black abdomen and hourglass red/orange streak on underside. The {roughly three-fold smaller} male is light brown with white markings on the upper side and a pale hourglass marking on the underside. Mainly nocturnal. Untidy web maker in warm sheltered locations near or within human residences. Webs are usually placed between two flat surfaces, one beneath the other. The rear portion of the web forms a funnel-like retreat area where the spider and egg sacs are found. Preys on insects, spiders, and small vertebrates {notably can capture larger animals that become entangled in the web including trapdoor spiders, small lizards, snakes, mice}. Other species of spider {black house, cellar, giant daddy-long-legs} and parasitoid wasps {spider wasp} prey on this species. Other wasps parasitize eggs. Mantid lacewings prey on eggs.
Often it first squirts its victim with 'superglue' from its spinnerets to immobilize prey by sticking the victim's limbs/appendages to its own body, then trusses the victim in silk. Once prey is restrained, it is bitten repeatedly in the head, body, and leg segments and then hauled back to the redback spider's retreat. Sometimes a potentially dangerous victim can be left to struggle for hours until it is exhausted enough to approach safely. Kills by injecting venom through two fangs, then wraps prey in silk and sucks out liquefied insides {generally 5 to 20 minutes after first attacking it}. Redback bites do not necrose.
The redback is one of the few arachnids that usually display sexual cannibalism while mating. The male has unique abdomen-presenting behavior to the female during mating, where the male somersaults to place his abdomen over the female's mouthparts and is usually eaten by the female while mating. After mating sperm is stored within the female's organs, and can be used up to two years later to fertilize several clutches of eggs. Each clutch averages 250 eggs and is housed in a spherical white silken egg sac. A female spider may lay four to ten egg sacs. Spiderlings hatch from their eggs after about 8 days and can emerge from the egg sac as early as 11 days after being laid. Spiderlings are sibling cannibalistic.
Juvenile males build a small sperm web before they leave their mother's web, then deposit its sperm from its gonads and collect it back into each of its two palps. After its last instar moulting, the male sets off to seek a female, attracted by her pheromones. It attempts to insert its palps into the female's two spermathecae. If the male comes across a juvenile female that lacks openings in its exoskeleton for the male to insert palps to the female organs, males will bite through the female exoskeleton and deliver their sperm.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 6, 2018 16:54:29 GMT -5
So here's follow on questions considering the Australian/Southeast Asian locales of the black widow genus Latrodectus hasseltii:
Does the sunless sea contain what is akin to the East Indies, Australia {and its territories}, and New Zealand? A series of 13,000 to 17,000 islands "down under" Greyhawk?
Does the sunless sea stretch all the way from the Hellfurnaces to connect into the depths of the Nyr Dyv? Does it also even connect to the depths of Lake Quag? The western Riftcanyon?
Did Lolth originate from the Forgotten City, lost capital of the Suel Imperium?
Note that Indonesia is located in the SW ring of fire, known for volcanic activity, ocean trenches, fault lines, plate movements, earthquakes, and tsunamis...
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 6, 2018 17:49:14 GMT -5
Gary said back in the day that it was all connected underground. I need a citation. I forgot where it was said a generic introductory description of Oerth if I recall.
Later he said he campaigned a Pellucidar situation in the interior as well.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 6, 2018 19:05:27 GMT -5
Extracting within the names: Lubash, Lareth, Lolth
ubas = similar to Spanish uvas, meaning {wine} grapes
Spain is the top producing wine making region in the world. Wine grapes are small, sweet, seeded prolate spheroids {think black widow egg sacs?} with thick skins. Grapes grow in clusters from 15 to 300. Colors can be crimson, black, dark blue, yellow, green, orange, pink {think hordes of different kinds of humanoids}?
Of Near East cultivation origination, with yeast naturally occurring on its skin, leading to the discovery of alcoholic drinks. The oldest known winery was found in Armenia, dating to about 4,000 BC. The Persian {think Baklunish, Ekbir?} city of Shiraz was known to produce some of the finest wines in the Middle East by the 9th century. Grapes are first mentioned in the Bible when Noah grows them on his farm. Grapes are linked to Dionysus and Christian {blood/sacrifice/remission of sins} tradition.
aret = dragon's mouth orchid {named after a naiad (think Lethe?) of Greek mythology}.
Occurs in bogs, swamps, and other wet lowlands {think moathouse locale?} in Eastern North America. It forms a large, single, pink terminal flower, with a showy lip and white and yellow fringed crests {think moathouse new master}?
olt = Olt River/Olt Defile in Romania
382 miles long; 9,290 square miles basin area {I think the Velverdyva is roughly 1,200 miles long, so maybe the length is a closer match to the original Greyhawk campaign map}? Originates in Hasmas Mountains of the eastern Carpathian Mountains. Known as Alutus or Aluta in Roman antiquity.
The Olt Defile cuts through the Transyvanian Alps {think Yatil Mountains}?. There are some regional hot springs. Rome occupied the area during the first century BC to 2nd century AD, and built the Limes Alutanus fortifications, marking the eastern frontier {think keep on the borderlands?} of Roman Dacia. From the 14th to the 18th century, several monasteries {think DMG sample adventure?} were built in the area. Notable is the Turnul Monastery - it had cells that were carved into the cliffs by hermits.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 6, 2018 19:36:58 GMT -5
Gary said back in the day that it was all connected underground. I need a citation. I forgot where it was said a generic introductory description of Oerth if I recall. Later he said he campaigned a Pellucidar situation in the interior as well. It looks like I need to read ERB's Pellucidar heptalogy. Also, I just narrowed down my Steinbeck reading to do list, starting with his social critic mainstays: In Dubious Battle, Of Mice and Men, The Grapes of Wrath. There are possibly some other works indicated here such as: The Pearl, Cannery Row, East of Eden, A Russian Journal, and perhaps even The Winter of Our Discontent?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 6, 2018 23:45:44 GMT -5
Is it possible that a goal of the temple is to crack an elemental rift along the entire length of the Velverdyva River, to completely separate the good realms of the west from the good realms of the east - with the fissure extending the full length of the Veluna/Furyondy border from Lake Quag to the Nyr Dyv?
Then Lolth takes the west, while Iuz {assisted by Igwlf?} takes the east?
Yet the Scarlet Brotherhood is working to thwart the burgeoning Iuz/Igwlf/Lolth alliance?
And the EEG might yet be released from imprisonment to pull the entirety of the Flanaess into primordial chaos?
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Post by grodog on Feb 7, 2018 0:28:38 GMT -5
I'm not a Steinbeck fan: good luck with your reading, Dave Allan.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 7, 2018 9:29:59 GMT -5
I'm not a Steinbeck fan: good luck with your reading, Dave Allan. [br Yeah, I've reconsidered and am backing off the Steinbeck angle. I get a little too enthusiastic and over imaginative looking deeper, and it's good that you and others here pull me back to reality!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 7, 2018 10:14:49 GMT -5
Extracting within the names: Lubash, Lareth, Lolth ubas = similar to Spanish uvas, meaning {wine} grapes Spain is the top producing wine making region in the world. Wine grapes are small, sweet, seeded prolate spheroids {think black widow egg sacs?} with thick skins. Grapes grow in clusters from 15 to 300. Colors can be crimson, black, dark blue, yellow, green, orange, pink {think hordes of different kinds of humanoids}? Of Near East cultivation origination, with yeast naturally occurring on its skin, leading to the discovery of alcoholic drinks. The oldest known winery was found in Armenia, dating to about 4,000 BC. The Persian {think Baklunish, Ekbir?} city of Shiraz was known to produce some of the finest wines in the Middle East by the 9th century. Grapes are first mentioned in the Bible when Noah grows them on his farm. Grapes are linked to Dionysus and Christian {blood/sacrifice/remission of sins} tradition. aret = dragon's mouth orchid {named after a naiad (think Lethe?) of Greek mythology}. Occurs in bogs, swamps, and other wet lowlands {think moathouse locale?} in Eastern North America. It forms a large, single, pink terminal flower, with a showy lip and white and yellow fringed crests {think moathouse new master}? olt = Olt River/Olt Defile in Romania 382 miles long; 9,290 square miles basin area {I think the Velverdyva is roughly 1,200 miles long, so maybe the length is a closer match to the original Greyhawk campaign map}? Originates in Hasmas Mountains of the eastern Carpathian Mountains. Known as Alutus or Aluta in Roman antiquity. The Olt Defile cuts through the Transyvanian Alps {think Yatil Mountains}?. There are some regional hot springs. Rome occupied the area during the first century BC to 2nd century AD, and built the Limes Alutanus fortifications, marking the eastern frontier {think keep on the borderlands?} of Roman Dacia. From the 14th to the 18th century, several monasteries {think DMG sample adventure?} were built in the area. Notable is the Turnul Monastery - it had cells that were carved into the cliffs by hermits. Ok, after looking into it more I am altering an interpretation from above: ubas, anagram for suba = a type of long sheepskin cloak worn by Hungarian shepherds So, Lubash has a significant Polish/Czech family name and crest, and is a Hungarian shepherd? Slavic family background, but since then somewhat displaced into a non-Slavic country {however, Hungary was under the control of Slavic Soviets following WWII}. Perhaps Lubash was placed in the moathouse by Iuz, so it's an uneasy partnership there with Lolth's appointed new master, Lareth? So that's why by "some trick of fate" a cloak ended up intermixed into his nest? He's a shepherd that feasts on "the sheep" {captives} he keeps in his pantry - lovely! Maybe it also indicates he is shepherding the bugbear/gnoll patrols in the moathouse dungeon level? It's a better analysis than considering this ogre as akin to a cluster of Spanish grapes...
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 7, 2018 10:44:51 GMT -5
Lareth is probably "Sir Gareth" (Beaumains) mixed with a guy named "Larry" Lubash (??) but saying it with "Lareth" is reminding me of "Lash Larue" for some reason. Wabash river in Gary's birthplace Illinois? It shines dark? Lolth. I don't know. I've heard the name "Lolly" and "Lol" as nicknames for "Laura". So it could just be a cruel love interest. It was Laura "Lol" Throgmartin! She "Lolthed" me!
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 7, 2018 11:28:36 GMT -5
"Loll" the word means "hang loosesly" so that has to be a contributer but its usually more complicated what he was doing with names.
Like in "Mordenkainen" which is obviously "Lemminkainen" which is unknown but associate with the Finnish word for "love" (lempi) you have Lempi-nkainen. You change "love" to "death" in Latin (mortem) and there you go Mortem + inkainen = Mordenkainen. Thats obviously what it is but you're losing letters, you're in two languages and he could have had an Uncle Mordecai for all I know. Which its probably all of what I just said combined.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 8, 2018 11:54:04 GMT -5
Lareth is probably "Sir Gareth" (Beaumains) mixed with a guy named "Larry" Lubash (??) but saying it with "Lareth" is reminding me of "Lash Larue" for some reason. Wabash river in Gary's birthplace Illinois? It shines dark? Lolth. I don't know. I've heard the name "Lolly" and "Lol" as nicknames for "Laura". So it could just be a cruel love interest. It was Laura "Lol" Throgmartin! She "Lolthed" me! If Lareth is a shadow of Sir Gareth "Beaumains" {good/beautiful hands} is this an indication of some other threads to work with here? Sir Gareth was the youngest son of Lot and of Morgause, King Arthur's half-sister. So right there a shadowy tie Lareth to Lolth {Lot}? Did Lareth, in betraying Thrommel, contest against Knights of the Hart under the different color coat of arms: Veluna {sable}, Furyondy {azure}, High Forest {vert}? So we would have among his conquests a black, blue, and green knight? Sir Gareth took the armor and horse of the black knight after defeating him. Sir Gareth overcame the Green Knight, Puce Knight, and Indigo Knight sparing their lives in return for sworn service to Sir Gareth. So both the High Forest and Furyondy Knights of the Hart have turncoats to Lareth? Is the Puce Knight to be associated with Rufus, since he has in his possession a Carnelian {Puce?} scarab? So he is the next imminent conquest and turncoat to Lareth? The Viscount of Verbobonc intends to establish his own Knights of the Hart order under Rufus when he reaches 8th level {superhero}? Maybe Lareth's lieutenant should be akin to the dwarf Melot - unless the temple has Melot working in the area elsewhere? Since Sir Gareth was the nephew of King Arthur, Lareth is the nephew of King {Arthur?} Thrommel? The good/beautiful hands of Sir Gareth are possibly an allusion to Lareth's great strength and/or ambidexterity? One of the two warhorses in Lareth's lair has a lance, so we are also to see Lareth as a dark Lance {bearing}-a-{son of} Lot? Then cross over to biblical Lot here that Lareth is the son of? Or is it that Lareth's lieutenant is to be associated with Sir Lancelot? Maybe it's that "Lareth" is a mash-up of Sir Lancelot and Sir Gareth? Does Lareth have a twin or clone? Or is this indication that he is a fallen paladin or else a turned to evil cavalier that is also a dual class {former St. Cuthbert's, now Lolth's} cleric as well? Where/who is Morgause, Gawain, Agravain, Gaheris, and Mordred? How about Guinevere? Is Lareth in pursuit of a unholy {Grail} artifact? Whoever slays Lareth becomes a Sir Bors type? Is someone within the Archclericy of Veluna {Camelot?} a "Kay" or else "Lynette" type, who "shepherded" Lareth into fallen knighthood? What quest did Lareth undertake that is akin to going to save Lyonesse from the Red Knight {Sir Ironsides - has the strength of seven men!} of the Red Lands, who has besieged Lyonesse's castle? The Red Lands are the Scarlet Brotherhood, who through their network of warrior-spy Knights have besieged {from infiltration within} a significant {Greyhawk?} castle? Iuz is seeking Lolth's and Igwlf's aid to work against the "Red Lands/Red Knight" objectives of this castle's overthrow? Is Mordenkainen meant to be associated with both Mordred and Gawain?
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 8, 2018 13:00:52 GMT -5
Combined with Lancelot I was thinking as well. But it could be just a name.
Gary was steeped in knights and shit going way back so it just might be par for the course.
I just noticed "Thrommel" is a mashup of "Hommlet" somewhat "THOMMEL". What?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 8, 2018 13:05:54 GMT -5
Lareth is probably "Sir Gareth" (Beaumains) mixed with a guy named "Larry" Lubash (??) but saying it with "Lareth" is reminding me of "Lash Larue" for some reason. Wabash river in Gary's birthplace Illinois? It shines dark? Lolth. I don't know. I've heard the name "Lolly" and "Lol" as nicknames for "Laura". So it could just be a cruel love interest. It was Laura "Lol" Throgmartin! She "Lolthed" me! In the case of Wabash association with Lubash: "it shines white" River meaning that Lubash came down {straight through the good lands of Veluna and Furyondy} the Velverdyva River {from Lake Quag or beyond}, or else via the Fals River {where masses of ogres, a large tribe of orcs, evil clerics, and a demon or devil are contesting within the Bramblewood Forest's hills between Ket, the Plains of the Paynims, and Bissel the rich but hard-pressed dwarves in a border area where but few human settlements exist}? So the Druids of Gnarley Forest have been on guard for humanoids coming up from the Pomarj/Wild Coast, and may be yet unaware that humanoids are now being smuggled back to the temple area from the northwest? Or should Lubash be a merrow? And/or is it a goal of the temple to change the elemental nature of the Velverdyva River into an "it shines black or else fire" river, defiling and isolating The good realms at the Veluna/Furyondy border? The Wabash River is about 500 miles long, so perhaps that is why the river flowing from Lake Quag to adjoin with the Fals River is often referred to as the Lower Fler River? In that case, if the Nyr Dyv was extended further to the west on the WOG map, just to the northeast of Verbobonc, then the TOEE could be placed directly adjacent to the Nyr Dyv, west of the Gnarley Woods, and the VOH distance and location descriptions together all start to become more workable and make much better sense... The length of the Velverdyva River from the Fals River fork to the westerly-adjusted inlet to the Nyr Dyv, would be approximately 500 miles, closely matching the length of the Wabash River!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 8, 2018 13:16:12 GMT -5
Combined with Lancelot I was thinking as well. But it could be just a name. Gary was steeped in knights and shit going way back so it just might be par for the course. I just noticed "Thrommel" is a mashup of "Hommlet" somewhat "THOMMEL". What? That's because that's where the King {Arthur Pendragon} Thrommel scandal took place...Lancelot's cuckolding with Guinevere...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 8, 2018 13:21:27 GMT -5
Combined with Lancelot I was thinking as well. But it could be just a name. Gary was steeped in knights and shit going way back so it just might be par for the course. I just noticed "Thrommel" is a mashup of "Hommlet" somewhat "THOMMEL". What? That's because that's where the King {Arthur Pendragon} Thrommel scandal took place...Lancelot's cuckolding with Guinevere... Or should I say Lareth's cuckolding of the Welcome Wench {Queen} of Furyondy...
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 8, 2018 13:22:26 GMT -5
so thats why the "r" as in "rod" was removed.. SORRY! TOO FAR!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 8, 2018 13:38:50 GMT -5
so thats why the "r" as in "rod" was removed.. SORRY! TOO FAR! So did Lareth and the Queen of Furyondy "loll" around at Hommlet's Inn in the past, or instead are they yet occasionally trysting at the moathouse?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 8, 2018 13:54:26 GMT -5
From Marmion: A Tale of Flodden Field by Walter Scott: Oh, what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive!
The battle of Emridy Meadows akin to the 1513 battle of Flodden?
Marion walled up alive in Lindisfarne, homeland of Saint Cuthbert?
It's all coming together, I think!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 8, 2018 14:21:11 GMT -5
Is King Thrommel, associated with the "Desert Fox", Rommel, unbeknownst to him, working with agents of the Scarlet Brotherhood? Is his intent to besiege and take Castle Greyhawk? Is he employing masked Scarlet Brotherhood agents to locate an artifact of great power that was lost in eons past in a desert? The Bright Desert? The Sea of Dust? An ancient Suloise artifact? Did Zagyg find an ancient Suloise artifact in a desert and hid it away within Greyhawk?
Or is it that King Thrommel is after the Crook of Rao, which Zagyg has currently hidden away in a Demi-plane?
Or is he after the Rod of Seven Parts or instead the Cup {holy grail-like} and Talisman of Al' Akbar?
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