Lareth's Guardsmen & Sergeants

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

The original VOH module has many differences compared to its revision within the TOEE module. Lareth's guards and sergeants in the original module are as follows:

Guardsmen: AC 5; HD 6x1 (d6+1); move 9"; crossbow; 30 bolts; sword; dagger {note that guardsmen have no shield listed, unlike in TOEE note}

Sergeants: AC 4; HD 2 (+4); H.P. 15; move 9", shield; morning star; hammer; dagger

Tentative rulings - ??

Guardsmen are not bandits or brigands, due to those are 1-6 hit points per MM

Guardsmen are not 1st level fighters, unlike in TOEE note, because then they would have d10 hit points

Guardsmen could be first level thieves with constitution = 15 if their missle weapons are hand crossbows?

Guardsmen more likely are first level assassins with constitution = 15 armed with light or heavy crossbows?

Guardsmen are wearing chain mail armor, or ring mail/studded leather armor with dexterity = 16; or padded armor with dexterity = 17

I think most likely the guardsmen are all 1st level assassins with constitution = 15, dexterity = 12-14, with chain mail armor and light crossbows? It is possible that they are instead wearing ring mail or studded leather armor with dexterity = 16.

Sergeants I think are most likely 2nd level fighters with constitution = 16 with chain mail and shield, which does match TOEE note.

[foster1941]

0-level "laboring males" per DMG p. 88 have 1d6+1 hit points. See also DMG p. 30 which states that "regular soldiers are 0-level men-at-arms with 4-7 hit points each" (which is consistent with none of the guardsmen having fewer than 4 hp). I'm sure that's what they were intended to be.

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Dec 21, 2017 17:20:18 GMT -5 foster1941 said:

0-level "laboring males" per DMG p. 88 have 1d6+1 hit points. See also DMG p. 30 which states that "regular soldiers are 0-level men-at-arms with 4-7 hit points each" (which is consistent with none of the guardsmen having fewer than 4 hp). I'm sure that's what they were intended to be.

Thanks for the clarification - I will have Lareth's guardsmen attack as 0 level fighters with chain mail armor, light crossbows, no shield.

The original VOH module lists unspecified 'sword' - what type of sword do you think is most likely for Lareth's guardsmen - short, broad, or long? I know the TOEE module specifies as long sword, but the original VOH doesn't specify?

It doesn't specify what type of sword for the lieutenant either in the original VOH module?

Maybe the guardsmen have short or broad swords, and the lieutenant has a long sword?

The brigands holed up in the "black chamber" don't have sword or crossbow types specified either for the original VOH module, nor is there a specified aide to the brigands' 2nd level fighter leader? The TOEE module increased the hit point total from 6 to 7 for a brigand and made him into an aide to the brigands' leader.

[GRWelsh]

I like the idea of the guardsmen having short swords and weapons that are cheaper and inferior to what the higher level fighter leaders have. The short sword evokes the image of a Roman legionary with a gladius, while the broad sword or long sword seems more like the weapon of knights and/or nobility, or at least professional warriors.

[Scott]

In situations like this, where the guards have multiple weapons, crossbows or spears, then I usually consider the swords as backup weapons and make them short swords. Leader types would have long swords.

[Scott]

Besides, with 18 guardsmen the PCs need a break.

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Lareth's sergeants in the VOH module have both shields and morning stars. I thought that morning stars were typically two handed weapons? Does this mean the sergeants each have great strength to be able to wield morning stars one-handed? Maybe the AD&D 1e morning stars are shorter hafted weapons than I envision more akin to a horseman's mace in length, just with the spikes of the morning star instead of a bludgeoning mace head on the shaft? The PHB weight for the morning star weapon is pretty heavy in comparison to some of the other weapons?

[foster1941]

It’s sloppy editing. Morning stars are considered a one-handed weapon in T1 (in addition to Lareth’s sergeants, a couple of Burne’s badgers and several members of the Hommlet militia are listed with morning star & shield) but based on its stats - length, weight, damage - it should definitely be a two-handed weapon. The simplest correction is probably to change all the morning stars to horseman’s flails (which is the AD&D weapon most people think of when they say “morning star” - a spiked ball on a chain - whereas the AD&D morning star represents a spiked head atop a fairly long pole). That or take away their shields.

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Dec 26, 2017 1:50:57 GMT -5 foster1941 said:

It’s sloppy editing. Morning stars are considered a one-handed weapon in T1 (in addition to Lareth’s sergeants, a couple of Burne’s badgers and several members of the Hommlet militia are listed with morning star & shield) but based on its stats - length, weight, damage - it should definitely be a two-handed weapon. The simplest correction is probably to change all the morning stars to horseman’s flails (which is the AD&D weapon most people think of when they say “morning star” - a spiked ball on a chain - whereas the AD&D morning star represents a spiked head atop a fairly long pole). That or take away their shields.

That sounds like a good call to me to change the morning stars to horseman's flails, and it matches an image of the enemy on the VOH module cover as well.