Post by foster1941 on Dec 13, 2017 14:32:18 GMT -5
Monster stats in AD&D aren't granular enough for it to really make a difference except in appearance (including height) - a goblin/orc crossbreed is probably shorter than a normal orc (average 5'), a hobgoblin/orc is probably taller (average 6'3"), and both would "look gobliny." But stats-wise I'd still consider them to be regular, 1 HD, orcs. Per the MM I suppose 1 in 10 orc/goblins might have 1-1 HD and 1 in 10 orc/hobgoblins 1+1 HD, but it's probably not worth bothering with.
I've always assumed that goblins were just a smaller breed of orcs, and hobgoblins -- being bigger and lacking penalties in sunlight -- were essentially the Uruk-Hai. So interbreeding between them is no big deal and probably not even noticeable by humans and demi-humans. There are so many humanoid variations to use, already, that I never thought of creating separate stats for these half-breeds. I thought the reference was just to establish that orcs are close enough relations to these races that they can interbreed with all of them... Men and orcs aren't so different, after all, it's just that orcs are more bestial, nocturnal, etc.
Being pragmatic? The reference to various breeds is a handy way to explain the differences in appearance of orc and goblin miniatures made by different companies.
Last Edit: Dec 13, 2017 18:49:28 GMT -5 by GRWelsh
Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Dec 14, 2017 11:06:17 GMT -5
I was thinking it is a way to have a Orc-goblin crossbreed leader of a smaller group of goblins in a dungeon, or a Orc-hobgoblin crossbreed leader of either goblins or orcs? And, for example, if a gang of goblins is encountered with a Orc-goblin cross-breed leader, it can be a hint that orcs may also be nearby? Likewise, if a gang of orcs led by a orc-hobgoblin cross-breed is encountered, it can be a hint that hobgoblins may be nearby?
Post by geneweigel on Dec 14, 2017 20:47:02 GMT -5
I'm very monster-centric so when I eventually brought up the humanoids of D&D with Gary it was like end of my seat excitement. His response was same as always about everything: Keep it open to explore more. Specifically, when I brought that up it was a response that said humanoids were made to give names to different levels of monster for variety. So rather than a hobgoblin goes up if mixed with troll blood in his world a 10 HD kobold is completely normal contradicting that even if he does follow a pattern from time to time. Same for a kobold goblin or a kobold dwarf or a kobold human. There might be a certain known half kobold breed but there are many half-kobold breeds in the realm of possibility that are probably lurking around a corner with different stats. It didn't ht me right away but as it sunk it sounded just like what he wrote in DRAGON #29 (SEPT 1979) about the half ogre and other possibilities about the pixie storm giant. But that was regarding PCs as ready to grab character races. So its not a troll and an orc makes a specific looking thing with a distinct set of hit dice its like a grab bag of traits unless its been isolated as a distinct type that always produces the same type then you'd get same look same hit dice being reproduced.
Last Edit: Dec 14, 2017 20:47:53 GMT -5 by geneweigel
I'd say the SIZE stat is not a biological assessment and the character related height is. That is, you won't get an accurate growth measurement because of other factors like gender, for example, being a major factor as the average attacker will usually not be female.
In the DMG, the typical human male height is 6', yet the typical half-Orc male height is 5'-6".
Is this due to cross-breeding of orcs with humans tends to stunt the overall height of the offspring?
I assume that in the ~18 months between publication of the MM and the DMG, Gary (or whoever Gary delegated that chart to) forgot that orcs are listed as 6'+ tall in the MM and was thinking of them as move like 5' tall, similar in size to elves. If you want to stick to the DMG value for half-orcs, you should probably amend the MM. If you want to stick with the MM, you should probably amend the DMG to make half-orcs the same height as humans. I tend to prefer the latter, especially since the PH says half-orc PCs can pass as human.
Last Edit: Feb 8, 2018 13:01:50 GMT -5 by foster1941
In relating AD&D to industry standard miniatures which was written as man/orc in DRAGON MAGAZINE #31 (NOV 1979), the "fantasysmith" doesn't skip a beat in equating men to orcs for size. So it must have been somewhat common thinking.
It might be a reference to the nature of orcs overpowering the weak so the shorter the more likely to be dominated and beget a half-orc. I don't know?
There was a kobold/blue dragon crossbreed in a campaign I played in. It was an NPC villain, but our DM let a former player make a guest appearance by playing this big blue kobold who could breathe lightning. He was truly one of the most hated and memorable villains in the campaign.
I once came up with an orc/demon crossbreed that I called orcambion. I also was inspired by the Minifigs "Iuz Enthroned & Evil Halflings" and came up with halfling/demon crossbreeds called camblings. I did not do up stats or detailed monster descriptions, they were simply ideas to beef up enemy humanoid forces with an explanation for why certain individuals had extra powers or resistances. There may have been an idea for an ogre/demon as well, something like a cambiogre.
Last Edit: Apr 10, 2018 13:33:01 GMT -5 by GRWelsh