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Post by Scott on Nov 19, 2016 13:08:59 GMT -5
How much gold do you expect PCs to possess? I think, for a long time, my DMing style was negatively influenced by a fear of munchkinism run amok. Looking at what the expectations are, I've always severely skimped on the wealth. A good example: a monk is allowed to put aside 250,000 GPs for his modest monastery at 8th level. Just the thought of 250,000 GPs in a PC's hands would give a lot of the DMs I know a stroke. 8th level clerics, 9th level fighters, etc, it was expected these characters would have the gold to build castles and maintain bodies of troops. There's a huge disparity between the amount of gold my players' PCs possess, and what it seems the game expected. This also severely affects the rate of advance in a campaign. No wonder Gary, etc. had stables of high level PCs; They were advancing at a much faster rate than in most of the pre-3E games I've played in. It really gives me something to think about as far as adventure design going forward.
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 19, 2016 17:37:00 GMT -5
My expectation would be for characters to be dirt poor only for a level or two. Then they become rapidly well-to do at early-mid levels because adventuring is a much more lucrative profession than nearly anything else. Adventurers should be relatively rich, when they survive! Also, it's the only way they can pay for hirelings and henchmen, and train, if you use those rules. By the time adventurers reach name level around 9th level, the expectation is for them to have enough wealth to actually construct a castle and pay for a small army and/or expensive hirelings and henchmen.
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 19, 2016 19:17:46 GMT -5
The guideline that I use is is xp=gp for everything.
If a character is a 10th level assassin for instance then their worth matches their experience so between 300,001-425,000 on average. Its convenient and its right there.
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Post by Scott on Nov 19, 2016 19:53:29 GMT -5
Gene, I noticed that guideline too when I was writing the post, but I didn't have time to dig into it yet. Looks like it would work.
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Post by grodog on Nov 20, 2016 0:41:51 GMT -5
As a DM, I think that PCs should always be hungry for more, especially through the lower levels (1-4), and up through the middle levels (5-8). From my POV, I don't mind giving PCs lots of treasure, because they're always going to have costs that will eat it up, usually faster than they can acquire it:
- training: this one's particularly significant at lower levels; often PCs will be in debt to play for new-level training IME, whether through IOUs, favors, magical geas/quest, etc. - general research/sage consultation: "what was that monster we fought, and how can we kill it next time, oh wise one?" - upkeep/cost of living: this only goes up as PCs increase in wealth and rank (and ties in nicely to the social class rules too; Trent touches on this in his companion IIRC); this also applies to henchmen and hirelings too, of course! - replacing and recharging lost/stolen/destroyed equipment: PC equipment attrition should be fairly regular---those item saving throws can really hurt.... - memberships/dues: to class-based guilds, temples, etc., as well as to other groups, societies, private libraries, etc. - class-based development research: new spell/magic item research, developing new/original weapons, poisons, etc. - custom commissions: paying someone else to build that spell/magic item/giant statue of the PCs you've not been able to find in the course of adventuring yet - kickbacks, bribes, protection money, blackmail, legal fees, etc. - taxes, fees, levies, fines, et al (including banking fees if the PCs don't have a stronghold)
Allan.
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 20, 2016 9:56:07 GMT -5
The biggest motivation is dragon fighting. Wasting time stopping an invasion might yield nothing but directly going after dragon money (usually random treasure type H+):
H-: DRAGON COILED H(1/2)
H: DRAGON BLACK H DRAGON BRASS H DRAGON GREEN H DRAGON EARTH DRAGON SPIRIT H
H+: DRAGON BLUE H,S DRAGON BRONZE H,S,T DRAGON COPPER H,S DRAGON GOLD H,R,S,T RAGON RED H,S,T DRAGON SILVER H,S,T DRAGON DRAGON SEA H (x2) DRAGON CELESTIAL H(x2)
Non-H: WHITE E,O,S DRAGON CLOUD R,T,X,Z DRAGON FAERIE S,T,U MIST X,Y,Z DRAGON SHADOW 10-80 gems/shadow or darkness magic items
4 items magic are in "H" (15%) and even more in "G" (35%:
G: DEMON TYPE V G MORKOTH G- SHEDU G- TRAPPER G- UMBER HULK G - ICE LIZARD G - NEEDLEMAN G - MINER -G
G+: DHERGODAEMON G+ - ULTODAEMON G,R - KRAKEN G,R,S -
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Post by Scott on Nov 20, 2016 10:55:25 GMT -5
As a DM, I think that PCs should always be hungry for more, especially through the lower levels (1-4), and up through the middle levels (5-8). From my POV, I don't mind giving PCs lots of treasure, because they're always going to have costs that will eat it up, usually faster than they can acquire it: - training: this one's particularly significant at lower levels; often PCs will be in debt to play for new-level training IME, whether through IOUs, favors, magical geas/quest, etc. - general research/sage consultation: "what was that monster we fought, and how can we kill it next time, oh wise one?" - upkeep/cost of living: this only goes up as PCs increase in wealth and rank (and ties in nicely to the social class rules too; Trent touches on this in his companion IIRC); this also applies to henchmen and hirelings too, of course! - replacing and recharging lost/stolen/destroyed equipment: PC equipment attrition should be fairly regular---those item saving throws can really hurt.... - memberships/dues: to class-based guilds, temples, etc., as well as to other groups, societies, private libraries, etc. - class-based development research: new spell/magic item research, developing new/original weapons, poisons, etc. - custom commissions: paying someone else to build that spell/magic item/giant statue of the PCs you've not been able to find in the course of adventuring yet - kickbacks, bribes, protection money, blackmail, legal fees, etc. - taxes, fees, levies, fines, et al (including banking fees if the PCs don't have a stronghold) Allan. I'm with you on everything, Allan, but my games have still not jived with the apparent expectation that by 8th - 9th level the PCs should have 250,000+ GPs on top of that for castle construction. I've always used the training rules, and in the past, with the adventures I've written, the PCs have struggled just to cover those expenses because I've been overly concerned about giving away too much. Wanting to gain levels and more magic has always been enough to keep my players hungry, and I suspect that would always be the case, regardless of their wealth.
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 20, 2016 11:32:10 GMT -5
Interplanetary at 15th level is probably my broadest guideline.
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 20, 2016 15:28:54 GMT -5
I left out Guardian Naga, Greater Basilisk, and Arcandaemon for TREASURE TYPE H because I was writing down dragon treasure specifically.
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Post by Scott on Nov 20, 2016 23:35:21 GMT -5
The player, Doug, has wanted a castle for his PC, Maylin, for a long time, but he spends tons of gold writing scrolls and recharging magic items. I think recently he realized what he was doing, since this is the longest he's gone without writing a bunch of scrolls. Once the series is over he may be set to start construction. I thought about a cloud island castle for him, but I've put that off for now.
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 21, 2016 9:23:27 GMT -5
I love the idea of a cloud castle for a wizard. Maybe you could write an adventure on a cloud castle and Maylin could have a chance to become the master of it. An early episode of the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS cartoon had a wizard in a cloud castle, and I thought that was a great idea... I always wondered if it could have been inspired by an old issue of FEAR with Man-Thing, when Jennifer Kale walked up that magic bridge to the sky castle where Dakimh the Enchanter was.
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 21, 2016 9:41:08 GMT -5
My campaign has had so many cloud castles at one point it seemed like I had to start air traffic control.
I think the category of moving fortresses is something that started with me since KRULL (1983) so it seemed de rigeur with all the fantasy art. My character "the character formerly known as Gimli" has a flying fortress but it is not maneuverable tacticlly. I do however have a recurring villain who has a tactical flying castle. He is a magic-user who you could imagine being in a old AVENGERS comic.
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Post by Scott on Nov 21, 2016 9:58:18 GMT -5
I like the cloud castle idea too, and may still do it. I'll decide after we finish this series. Maylin knows Falx, so I was thinking of using that as the hook. He knows of a cloud island that was once the abode of some good being, but it's been taken over by some nasties.
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Post by grodog on Nov 21, 2016 18:53:27 GMT -5
There was a cloud island fortress adventure in an early Dungeon issue, "The Plight of Cirra" or somesuch. I don't recall if it was any good or not, though. (The Grenadier Cloudland adventure is terrible, so don't buy that).
Allan.
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 23, 2016 13:18:57 GMT -5
There was a cloud island fortress adventure in an early Dungeon issue, "The Plight of Cirra" or somesuch. I don't recall if it was any good or not, though. (The Grenadier Cloudland adventure is terrible, so don't buy that). Allan. Yeah, my brother was wild about DUNGEON MAGAZINE but I wasn't a fan. I ran a few early issues but they seemed too unedited and user end. Too Roger E. Moore-ish that is where it seems official but not in the actual text just image-wise and layout-wise. EX: Nonhuman Deities expansions from "POINT OF VIEW" Dragon articles (#58 FEB 1982 to #63 JUL 1982) that ended up in UNEARTHED ARCANA (1985). Speaking of "The Roger E. Moore parallel D&D universe" there was a bit he did in DRAGON *39 (JUL 1980) for BAZAAR OF THE BIZARRE (AKA the column that Greenwood liked to do) called "Cloud Castles". As usual, it was nothing to write home about. It was so bad that Sandy "Cthulhu is from Planet Kolob" Peterson took a turn doing a completely different one in THE BOOK OF WONDROUS INVENTIONS (1987) which was a contemporary of 1988's WG7 CASTLE GREYHAWK (the Williams era mocking of Gygax) in mood and feel. So both are terrible. All of this talk reminds me of a cartoon with the cartoon character making his breath solidify into cloud steps. I can't remember what that was from. Anyway, you want to talk about heart break? The character that I mentioned early with the flying fortress? The maps are completely gone. I've been looking for them for years to no avail. I remember the basic layout and some of the broad aspects but the map had side illustrations of the mechanics of how it can turn in any direction and be level on the interior. SO from the side it looked like a Star Destroyer but it would land and make a tower. Invasion! Just picture a gradient of 4 boxes on top of each other with rotating crenellation that works like a Rubik's Cube to make it "castle-y". Yeah, it was pretty cool but I would have to do it again from memory which sucks.
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