foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Oct 31, 2016 17:20:15 GMT -5
Hoping the postman didn't just leave it sitting on my stoop as an extra Halloween treat for the neighborhood kids :/
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 1, 2016 7:32:03 GMT -5
I'm mainly interested in the Greyhawk and El Raja Key dungeon levels... Are these dated back to the time when Rob was co-DMing Greyhawk with EGG, and before that when Rob was DMing for EGG's characters Yrag and Mordenkainen in El Raja Key? If so, this may very well be as close as we will ever get to that Holy Grail.
Scott, I have a full rack of wine -- you just say when. I think a Château Margaux might be in order...
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Post by Scott on Nov 1, 2016 7:48:38 GMT -5
Yes, the dungeon levels are Rob's original El Raja Key levels, and maps from the 2nd Greyhawk Dungeon after he became co-DM. It's fascinating to see those old maps and finally get a look into Kalibruhn, but the lack of keys with the maps is disappointing, as is the lack of commentary and anecdotes.
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 1, 2016 7:50:17 GMT -5
I was hoping for the "Bottle City" treatment -- that was excellent.
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Post by Scott on Nov 1, 2016 8:19:06 GMT -5
That was good. This is material (mostly maps) a DM used to run games with no finish for publication. Lots of insight into how Kalibruhn and Greyhawk were run early on through NPC descriptions, keyed locations in the city, etc. Straight from the DM's reference material, but no expanded notes, etc.
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 1, 2016 8:51:41 GMT -5
Well, I suppose we should be grateful Rob decided to finally release this stuff at all... I am. I've often wondered what he and EGG were thinking, and how their discussions about this old stuff went. They were sitting on this for years, and probably discussed various options... With so much expectation built up, I'm sure they each wanted to "do it right" and not have it be a disappointment or seem incomplete.
Perhaps there just weren't many dungeon keys. I think Rob -- and EGG as well -- had mentioned that quite often they would wing it in those days -- having maps and some ideas of what was where, but often making it up when players would go in a direction unplanned for.
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Post by Scott on Nov 1, 2016 9:26:31 GMT -5
I've seen a couple of the keys, and they were, for the most part, keys to wing it by with a few special set pieces. There was a master key that they shared and updates so they were both current on happenings within the campaign.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Nov 1, 2016 9:56:17 GMT -5
Hoping the postman didn't just leave it sitting on my stoop as an extra Halloween treat for the neighborhood kids :/ The good news is that the kids didn't take it; the bad news is that they didn't have a chance because it apparently wasn't put in the mail to me until yesterday, so I guess I've got another couple days to wait for my copy to arrive...
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 1, 2016 11:28:33 GMT -5
From Gary's angle, when I brought up Castle Greyhawk as a campaign, it would be more about the development of D&D being chief factor of all game interactions in the Castle. Once Rob took over it was about Rob's new ideas and continuing the "legendary campaign" in spirit but without the direct development angle so much. I specifically had made a point to ask about where Rob was sitting because I like to visualize things (Pffft....YEAH...MAN... ) and thats when he went off on why he created Hommlet so as to not deal with the, at that point, piled up experiments of the Greyhawk campaign from D&D development. So in order to have to have dealt with CASTLE ZAGYG it was: A) Remove the D&D developmental junk B) Make it for modern buyers C) Don't sell it short Which were all problems in it itself never mind the fact that him and Rob couldn't get along anymore. For my interest in this material in contrast: A) Leftover developmental ideas B) Stuff not for modern buyers C) Not paying for just maps
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Post by Scott on Nov 1, 2016 13:45:47 GMT -5
The Greyhawk City stuff is pretty cool. No maps that I've found yet other than the sewer system, but a partial key of keyed locations. Also interesting how they managed certain town NPCs for random encounters, index cards with quick stats, abilities, where in the city an encounter could occur, etc. Lots more to page through.
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 1, 2016 14:41:45 GMT -5
I just got mine in the mail today... I'm copying it over to my desktop hard drive now.
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Post by grodog on Nov 1, 2016 17:42:04 GMT -5
There are historical notes and commentaries, just not as many as I'd expected. I was hoping for more keys as well, but perhaps there'll be sufficient interest to do a volume 2 and that can include keys (assuming that they still exist) Allan.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Nov 1, 2016 18:00:54 GMT -5
There are historical notes and commentaries, just not as many as I'd expected. I was hoping for more keys as well, but perhaps there'll be sufficient interest to do a volume 2 and that can include keys (assuming that they still exist) Allan. Alas, it's more likely that the plan is to sell the keys as booklets at $15 a pop
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Post by Scott on Nov 1, 2016 20:11:15 GMT -5
I think it specifies that the keys are lost to Rob.
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Post by Scott on Nov 2, 2016 9:00:03 GMT -5
In Castle Zagyg the BR was going to be a level 4 side level. In the story it seems like the party finds the steps to the BR on level 2, so either Gary hand waved it for the story or the steps the party found wend down 5 levels.
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 2, 2016 9:45:33 GMT -5
It could be separate approaches or dungeon tricks (principle behind slopes, elevator rooms, etc.)
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Post by grodog on Nov 3, 2016 11:41:33 GMT -5
Here are my first impressions of the Archive:
The DVD Archive contains 284 lines in the Table of Contents, but several of those are not content-related (legal, using the archive, credits, etc.), and there are several layers in the menu for navigation (some of which have introductory text associated with them, others of which don't). So, there are ~260 distinct pieces of content (that’s an estimate, I haven’t counted the individual content titles).
The Archive content is navigated through an .html interface with a cascading menu, or through the TOC which displays all of the menu levels (as if the cascading menus were all open). When a piece of content includes multiple pages of scans, the content is navigated through using small thumbnail images broken into paging groups (page 1 of thumbnails displays 4 thumbnail images, pag2 includes next 4, etc.). All of the pieces of content have at least a minimal text description, and some are quite substantive (8+ paragraphs long). Most are shorter, with 2-3 short paragraphs of descriptive text about the content. When a thumbnail is clicked on, the content’s scanned image opens below the thumbnails and content introductory text. You can click on the image to see it full-size as well. All of the content presented is in scanned form, whether it was originally a map, a handwritten key or notes page, or a typed or printed document. The Archive does not include any transcripts or OCR’d text. The content scans are quite good quality, and the .html interface itself is quick and easy to use (unlike the old Dragon Archive CD Archive).
The content itself includes a broad selection of content drawn primarily from Kuntz’s Greyhawk and Kalibruhn works, with a few pieces of content from the pre-D&D era (including Kuntz’s original write-up of his “City of the Gods” adventure summary from Oerth Journal #7). Much of the Greyhawk and Kalibruhn content includes maps (sometimes with keys, but more often without especially for the levels of Castle Greyhawk and El Raja Key). Most map/key content items are 2-4 pages long, but some are substantially longer: the Lost City of the Elders includes 68 content thumbnails for huge maps, handwritten manuscript keys/notes, typescript pages, and original artwork; the Kalibruhn Blackstar novel draft/notes are 17 pages long; the Greyhawk Pit of Geburah adventure (referenced in the original folio and boxed sets as an evil sleeping beneath the depths of the Drachensgrab Mountains) contains 41 pages of maps, manuscript and types keys/notes, pregen PCs, sketches, etc., in addition to its 2 page historical commentary introduction. The K1 Sunken City adventure included with the Standard+ DVD Archive purchases is a short 4.5”x7.5” booklet. I’ve flipped through it, but not read it yet. It has a detached cover, is staple-bound, and is 40 pages long (the Deluxe and Collector printings of the Sunken City include an additional 1000 words or so). You need to use the maps from the Archive to run the adventure.
A word of warning/caveat to my impressions above: I've had access to most of the files and information in the DVD Archive for several years (and in some cases, decades), and I certainly think it's a great trove of information about Greyhawk, Kalibruhn, and Rob's many works over the years, but I don't know that I can really view it through "fresh" eyes. For example, among the 24 distinct levels/keys of Castle Greyhawk and El Raja Key presented in the archive, the only one that’s new to me is Castle Greyhawk’s Level 5 Sealed Tomb Level map, along with the CG-ERK levels’ mapping relationships (that Castle Greyhawk Core Level 03 Gem Room & Crypts was originally El Raja Key level 4, for example).
The Archive is indeed a treasure trove of gaming material and lore from the Greyhawk and Kalibruhn campaigns. There’s plenty of material in the Archive that a DM can pick up and run with, and plenty to inspire a DM in his own campaign building efforts (whether using Kalibruhn, Greyhawk, or his own homebrew setting). There’s also great historical context here for someone wanting to read the Archive alongside a book like Jon Peterson’s Playing at the World, as well as deep insight into the creative mind of Rob Kuntz, and his lasting (and continuing!) impact on the development of Dungeons & Dragons.
I hope that helps provide some additional context for folks who are interested in the Archive and my thoughts on it. I’ll likely write some more about the Sunken City adventure soon!
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Nov 5, 2016 20:03:43 GMT -5
I got mine on Thursday. Had some trouble getting it to play at first but copying it onto my hard drive instead of trying to access it from the disc fixed most of the issues.
I've spent a few hours poring over it. There's a lot of cool stuff but the vast majority of it is frustratingly incomplete - just maps or maps and very rough, non-playable notes. In some cases it's because the rest of the material was lost over the years, in others because Rob never wrote anything beyond rough notes.
By my count there are five Greyhawk "adventures" that have complete keys and are actually playable - level 2 of Greyhawk Castle, Bottle City, Dark Druids, The Stalk, and another outdoor adventure the name of which I'm blanking on. Bottle City and The Stalk we have, of course, already seen. The Dark Druids adventure is interesting because it has little, if any, apparent similarity to the later adventure published under that name. It's so different to make me wonder if perhaps when Rob was writing the module for Troll Lord Games he didn't have access to the original version and just recreated it based on memory (FWIW the commentary in the archive admits this is exactly what he did for the published version of The Living Room).
There are, I believe, a few more complete adventures in the Kalibruhn section, but browsing through that section confirmed my opinion that I don't really like that stuff.
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 6, 2016 18:23:28 GMT -5
I got mine on Thursday. Had some trouble getting it to play at first but copying it onto my hard drive instead of trying to access it from the disc fixed most of the issues. I've spent a few hours poring over it. There's a lot of cool stuff but the vast majority of it is frustratingly incomplete - just maps or maps and very rough, non-playable notes. In some cases it's because the rest of the material was lost over the years, in others because Rob never wrote anything beyond rough notes. By my count there are five Greyhawk "adventures" that have complete keys and are actually playable - level 2 of Greyhawk Castle, Bottle City, Dark Druids, The Stalk, and another outdoor adventure the name of which I'm blanking on. Bottle City and The Stalk we have, of course, already seen. The Dark Druids adventure is interesting because it has little, if any, apparent similarity to the later adventure published under that name. It's so different to make me wonder if perhaps when Rob was writing the module for Troll Lord Games he didn't have access to the original version and just recreated it based on memory (FWIW the commentary in the archive admits this is exactly what he did for the published version of The Living Room). There are, I believe, a few more complete adventures in the Kalibruhn section, but browsing through that section confirmed my opinion that I don't really like that stuff. Thanks for the additional info. I'm leaning towards not purchasing based on the dearth of Greyhawk Castle keys. How much material is there for the level 2 of the Castle? One map/one page key like Gary's binder maps, or more? Level 2 is the "Invisible Maze"? Is there an interesting set-up for this maze?
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Post by Scott on Nov 6, 2016 19:02:54 GMT -5
Single map, 2 page key including the Assassin of the Green Claw. One of my favorite old school bits so far.
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