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Post by geneweigel on Sept 4, 2016 20:54:08 GMT -5
That is the dungeons are his namesake.
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Post by GRWelsh on Sept 5, 2016 8:50:07 GMT -5
So Castle El Raja Key was made by a wizard named El Raja Key? Any back story on this guy?
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 5, 2016 10:03:51 GMT -5
I just picture Rob in a robe...
I think Rob is:
Zayene in Kalibrun/Lost City of the ELders Xaene in Greyhawk El Raja Key in El Raja Key The Guy Who Never Got Back About Anything in Gene Weigel's Dungeon
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 5, 2016 14:15:34 GMT -5
I just picture Rob in a robe... I think Rob is: Zayene in Kalibrun/Lost City of the ELders Xaene in Greyhawk El Raja Key in El Raja Key The Guy Who Never Got Back About Anything in Gene Weigel's Dungeon
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 5, 2016 14:16:38 GMT -5
How about some artwork on this to help picture this?
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 5, 2016 18:31:36 GMT -5
How about some artwork on this to help picture this? Well its mostly cut and paste but:
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Post by Scott on Sept 5, 2016 19:50:25 GMT -5
That made me laugh out loud to the point my 10 year old was like "what's so funny?"
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 5, 2016 20:08:32 GMT -5
Excellent love the slippers!
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Post by GRWelsh on Sept 6, 2016 9:18:25 GMT -5
Good one, Gene. I think I recognize some of the sources. Rob's head is from an old advert in THE DRAGON drawn by Dave Trampier, and the robed body is Dungeonmaster from the D&D cartoon, but where is the body in slippers holding the coffee mug from?
Xaene was a lich with two heads. Did we ever find out the story behind that? Was he a human magic-user with two heads, in life, who became a lich? Why did he have two heads? Was this just a case of Rob working up a tough encounter and saying to himself: "What would be worse than a lich? A lich with two heads, that casts two spells per round!"
Is there any in-game connection between Xaene, Zayene and El Raja Key?
Zagyg exists to an extent as an in-game personification of EGG, as 'THE' Dungeon Master of Greyhawk*. Was El Raja Key the analogous personage for RJK in Kalibruhn?
*"Why do the labyrinthine dungeons, with all their myriad levels, exist under the ruins of Castle Greyhawk? Because Zagyg has godlike power and is mad! Mad, I tell you!" may be the usual reply but possibly with a deeper explanation as hinted at in the Gord novels -- the dungeons are built upon a nexus of realities. There may be a method to his madness if Zagyg is acting at the behest of his deity, Boccob.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 6, 2016 9:58:42 GMT -5
The two-headed Xaene was explained to me by Rob as only for that module but I don't know what his intention was there. So he isn't the same Xaene who would have been which frankly is the only one that I'm interested in.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 6, 2016 10:03:18 GMT -5
Zagyg exists to an extent as an in-game personification of EGG, as 'THE' Dungeon Master of Greyhawk*. Was El Raja Key the analogous personage for RJK in Kalibruhn? Yeah, I think so. *"Why do the labyrinthine dungeons, with all their myriad levels, exist under the ruins of Castle Greyhawk? Because Zagyg has godlike power and is mad! Mad, I tell you!" may be the usual reply but possibly with a deeper explanation as hinted at in the Gord novels -- the dungeons are built upon a nexus of realities. There may be a method to his madness if Zagyg is acting at the behest of his deity, Boccob. My theory from talking to Gary was that the dungeon themes are all a lure for the denizens to spill over and and "tie" the nexus.
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Post by grodog on Sept 6, 2016 11:20:51 GMT -5
The two-headed version of Xaene was Rob's way to show that Xaene was serving two masters---the real Xaene under Rob, and TSR's version of the character in Fate of Istus.
FWIW, I just ignore the two-headed version completely in games, which is I'm sure what Rob intended!---Xaene seems to be his favorite character from over the years, who he has returned to over and over. IIRC, he first appears in some Wild Coast NPC listings from 1972, but he's from Kalibruhn and migrated to Greyhawk when Rob began to co-DM there. In fact, come to think of it, I'm pretty sure that I asked Rob about some of this background in my OJ#14 interview with him....
Allan.
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Post by GRWelsh on Sept 6, 2016 12:26:59 GMT -5
The "Xaene serving two masters" is an out of game, or meta reason for Xaene having two heads. But I was wondering if Rob ever developed an in game rationale for Xaene having two heads. Maybe not. Maybe that is all there was to it -- just a throwaway 'concept' for that particular module. Unfortunately, that's the only version of Xaene a lot of people ever got to see!
I can understand feeling attached to creations from very early on, and also wanting to disavow certain conceptualizations of them, later.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 6, 2016 13:23:49 GMT -5
Holy crap, I misspelled Kalibruhn twice! The bathrobe image was just a google image grab of a stock photo of a guy in his bathrobe: image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-photo-cartoon-illustration-of-a-grouchy-man-in-his-bathrobe-and-holding-a-coffee-cup-134057705.jpgHere is the bit on Xaene's in-game dual nature and origin from FATE OF ISTUS (1989): I tried to get the reasoning of him working for "fake TSR" considering all the foam-flecked product that he should have been aware wasn't actual D&D but at the time, 2000-2001 or so, he was trying not to stir the pot and was being evasive with answers like "the 1980 folio wasn't real Greyhawk" etc., etc. of course, I'm now well aware of what happened behind the scenes at T$R but at that time I was just beginning to understand the details like who the Blumes were for instance. As an aside, to what Rob thinks is Greyhawk and what a Greyhawk fan thinks is Greyhawk are two separate things. I had bought a baggie of the 1983 WOG set at GenCon 2002 and I unfolded the map (which is the same as the Folio map) and he didn't recognize it at all. I almost thought that he was some guy pulling a scam, like Will Smith pretending to be Sidney Poitier's son in the movie SIX DEGREES OF SEPARATION (1993), at that point. If he hadn't been validated by him talking to Ernie Gygax, Dave Arneson, Jim Ward, and Gary I would have thought he was a phoney.
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Post by GRWelsh on Sept 7, 2016 7:57:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the quote. So Xaene was a chaotic evil wizard who was transformed into a lich and had his alignment shifted to neutral evil as a result of uncovering the secret of the Tapestry of Nightmares. But since Xaene still retained something of his old will, Nerull cursed him by giving him two heads, one for each side of his divided will, one N and one E. And Xaene hopes to one day remove the curse and become one-headed and a single alignment -- NE -- again. So, this is Xaene as the NPC in the 'published' (TSR) world of Greyhawk, once court wizard to the Overking.
And I assume Zayene is the similar NPC on the world of Kalibruhn in an alternate Prime Material Plane who may never have had this curse happen to him... (perhaps in Rob's mind, the 'real' Zayene?).
Is Castle El Raja Key located somewhere on the world of Kalibruhn? I read somewhere that Mordenkainen and some of EGG's other characters adventured there, and I always wondered how they accessed it. Perhaps through a gate in the Greyhawk Dungeons? Or maybe that was all just hand waved away, in the time when player characters freely moved back and forth between the lands of different DMs (i.e., it may have been undefined if it was on a different plane or just in a different location on the same plane/world).
The whole discussion about 'real Greyhawk' is just confusing. Of course, there was EGG's home campaign, which I suppose is what Rob meant by 'real Greyhawk.' But to us fans, there was another distinction between published Greyhawk as it was under EGG's control, and post-Gygax Greyhawk. Knowing what I know now, it is difficult to imagine wanting to be involved in any post-Gygax Greyhawk. But it is also hard to judge anyone else for taking a paycheck to do something in a version they never considered 'real,' anyway. In the 80's and even in the 90's, I had no idea just how horrible the whole TSR situation was, even before EGG left in 1985.
Now, that's a story in the horror genre.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 7, 2016 9:03:53 GMT -5
If somehow everything TSR was done fantastically ( for instance Dragonlance dying or reinvented by Gary with the removal of the Blumes. I know fantastic, right?) the Greyhawk world line could have went anywhere. The Great Kingdom would most likely have been "all Kalibruhn" regardless. For the sake of sheer imagining, I could see El Raja Key being spun off the Great Kingdom and been a part of a planar series. The ones that Steve Marsh was developing would have been established and that is probably where ERK would fall unless it was integrated. Imagine an Orient that was a Gary & friends friendly version so who knows? Maybe some of Rob's stuff could have been used there as well. Maybe ina Shangri-La type environs. After an initial fantasy of how things could have been at post-1985 Gary TSR with all idealized things. I could also imagine a second wave without all the nerd incoherence coming out of TSR at the time of the early 90's ( TSR DC comics, which were terrible, would have had Greyhawk and ties to D&D content instead of the fantasy jazz with hints of D&D drag that it was. People would find relatable characters akin to the old D&D adverts with direct intelligence to D&D material.) which was reciprocated in turn by the emerging nerd culture which loved the incoherence of Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer, Dragonlance, etc.. During this Mirror Mirror unFR period I believe we would have seen other Greyhawk novels and this would probably been a chance for a couple of Kuntz Great Kingdom stories. I can also imagine all of the energy on Greyhawk by 1992 might have even had NECROPOLIS as a Greyhawk thing with influence from T8 BEYOND ELEMENTAL EVIL and WG CASTLE GREYHAWK III (which would have been released just prior! ) This would have signaled a large dungeon by Rob, having done LOST CITY OF THE ELDERS and EL RAJA KEY already at this point, which most likely would have been a massive CITY OF BRASS module as we all figured by now would have been unlike the Hackmaster thing. Speculation on the past or the shape of D&D to come?
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Post by GRWelsh on Sept 7, 2016 9:43:24 GMT -5
More like an old Marvel issue of WHAT IF?
"WHAT IF... Don Kaye didn't die?"
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 7, 2016 10:14:39 GMT -5
WHAT IF Rob Kuntz was handed Operation Overlord?
Image of Knights of Doom being hot Elmore girls.
WHAT IF E. Gary Gygax's D&D movie was made?
Image of Orson Welles saying "Gord of Greyhawk? I AM THE DUNGEON MASTER!"
WHAT IF Ed Greenwood imploded in 1985?
Image of man reading Dragon Magazine with zoom in to what he's looking at. Title of articles reads: THE ACTUAL ECOLOGY OF WHAT THE DESIGNER'S INTENDED FOR THE BEHOLDER. The cover blurb reads: THE NINE HELLS: THE APOLOGY by E.Gary Gygax
What if Ernie and Luke Gygax made a module in the 80's?
Image of adventurers in front of city ruins a wizard saying: "BEHOLD GAXMOOR LOST CITY OF THE WILD COAST!"
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Post by GRWelsh on Sept 7, 2016 15:24:27 GMT -5
Yeah, you could drive yourself crazy thinking about how things could have gone. EGG having D&D and Greyhawk taken away from him is analogous to Middle Earth being taken away from Tolkien or Conan being taken away from Howard because someone offered money to help them get published but then through some business/legal shenanigans and unfortunate events acquired control of the intellectual property. It might be legal -- but it sure seems wrong!
I have no animosity to the likes of Greenwood, Hickman, Weis, etc. They are just creative types (as opposed to business types) who found an audience on their own fantasy wavelengths, and aren't responsible for 'ruining D&D.' That blame falls squarely on the people who wrested control of D&D and Greyhawk away from EGG.
Anyway, back to Rob -- I'm looking forward to the new DVD. There are few gaming products I genuinely look forward to, anymore. Rob's "Original Bottle City" was the last one I felt was on my own fantasy wavelength.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 7, 2016 15:33:11 GMT -5
I have no animosity to the likes of Greenwood, Hickman, Weis, etc. They are just creative types (as opposed to business types) who found an audience on their own fantasy wavelengths, and aren't responsible for 'ruining D&D.' If anyone deserves that blame falls squarely on the people who wrested control of D&D and Greyhawk away from EGG. Anyway, back to Rob -- I'm looking forward to the new DVD. There are few gaming products I genuinely look forward to, anymore. Rob's "Original Bottle City" was the last one I felt was on my own fantasy wavelength. Gene stares off into the distance,"Yes, moving forward back to Rob... with several parades of juggernauts crushing Hickman, Weis and Greenwood into powder... gooooood..."
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