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Post by geneweigel on Sept 21, 2016 9:25:29 GMT -5
Maybe there is an artifact out there somewhere that has the power to remove bad Scottish accents from all the dwarves in the multiverse. That would be a worthy quest! That would make a great trilogy... TSR-uman of Many Colors: a new power is rising, Fandalf the Grey, we must join it. Fandalf: I've heard speeches like this before... coming out of Mord-ORIGINS! TSR-uman of Many Colors: "User-end-on" the Competitor thought you would say as much, Fandalf. We'll let you wait out the hostile takeover in the top of the tower of IFW-engard that I call the Penthouse of Bland Game Products then when they have time they'll choose a fitting punishment. Fandalf, gets taken away to the top of the tower by gully dwarves and a gnoll with a harp as TSR-uman moves to face an army outside on his balcony.TSR-uman of Many Colors: Rise my fighting scotsdwarfs! You shall have fan flesh!
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 21, 2016 11:54:42 GMT -5
I think that I laughed my ass off writing that. WEIGELAS of the QUEENS FOREST: Ai! Ai! A harpgnoll has come! ----- LADY GA-LEAD-RIEL: Where is Fandalf? SIX-SIDER: He fell into mediocrity, milady. Nine gamed into Boria but only eight passed the all-talk tavern session of the ancient world...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 5, 2016 9:59:19 GMT -5
I was looking into UA further, and see that gray elves, wood elves, and wild elves have different ability score modifiers per each specific race? Are these all instead of the +1 dexterity and -1 constitution ability score modifiers in PHB? Are the PHB ability score modifiers only for high elves, or also for Drow? Are you supposed to apply PHB ability score modifiers first to any elf PC, and then apply UA modifiers in addition to the PHB ability score modifier? Did Gary Gygax ever explain how the PHB and UA ability score modifiers are supposed to work for elves?
I guess this question also applies to the duergar PCs, do they get the PHB ability score modifiers same as hill or mountain dwarf?
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Post by Scott on Nov 5, 2016 10:04:11 GMT -5
Unless it specifies, in addition to.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 5, 2016 11:04:17 GMT -5
Unless it specifies, in addition to.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 5, 2016 11:16:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification.
It seems odd to me that the Cavalier class does not have a minimum charisma ability score requirement similar to its Paladin sub-class?
The cavalier gains followers through level progression, not just henchmen like the Paladin also does, yet may have a charisma ability score as low as 6 in the case of a human or half-elven Cavalier? This seems incongruent with the depiction of the cavalier as leader of others (through level advancement) devoted to a deity, cause, etc.?? I could understand a charisma ability score minimum somewhat less than the Paladin's 17 minimum, but to not have a minimum charisma ability score for this character class seems weird?
Has anyone modified this for their campaigns, and if so, how did you modify?
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 5, 2016 16:37:36 GMT -5
In DRAGON issue 114 it has all the stats spelled out for all the UA updates on 5 combined charts for easier reference.
The cavalier material was reiterated (from the 1st mag appearance) I think to replicate the medieval feel of knights riding out with no regard for their own men. So you could have a charming cavalier but a paladin its a necessity of the class as a paragon.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 5, 2016 18:38:50 GMT -5
So UA basically made the high elf PC obsolete because thee gray elf has all the abilities as a high elf and it's got the intelligence ability bonus that the high elf doesn't have?
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 5, 2016 19:49:00 GMT -5
I think racial differences would have been about the availability of resources in the campaign for fringe culture (a high elf would have an easier time dealing with a human lord than a grey elf EX: Elrond being more accessible than Thranduil and Galadriel) but its hard to imagine continuance with Gary at the helm because we'll never know.
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Post by Scott on Nov 6, 2016 9:31:27 GMT -5
I use everything in the UA, but it's not a free for all. It's still up to the DM to run his game the way he wants. 'A duergar, a drow, a barbarian, a faerie, a paladin, and an assassin meet in Verbobonc and decide to go adventuring together'. Errrr, No. There are limitations based on circumstances. In the right situation a drow would be an option. Or a barbarian. Or a gray elf. If a player really wants to play something, I will usually end up working it into the game, but in a way that makes sense, with all of the consequences.
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 6, 2016 10:15:08 GMT -5
I've been in so many PC type campaigns since the late 80's that after Gygax its seems from my perspective the DMs took a nose dive into bowdlerization that was even harsher than the homogenization of races with superfluous text add-on books (FORGOTTEN REALMS, DUNGEONEERS GUIDES, 2E,etc).
In the case of race players if the players complain about support then remove all bonuses.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Nov 6, 2016 13:55:43 GMT -5
The social class table in UA helps put a limit on the "improved" races (gray elves and mountain dwarfs): mountain dwarfs are minimum UMC and gray elves are minimum LUC so if you don't roll at least that well you can't play one and have to play a high elf or hill dwarf instead.
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 6, 2016 14:29:57 GMT -5
Removal of Gygax from the company was like telling the Coca Cola recipe to take a hike in the 80's it was just bad business. They should have brought him back immediately once they realized Ward, Greenwood, Grubb, Cook, Weiss, Sargent, Moore, etc. were equivalent to office furniture.
Its shit like this that never made sense to me. But its always the almighty buck that mattered as long as enough idiots (myself included) kept buying fluff covers with hope something better would come along then why bother? If I was in charge of the Hasbro D&D branch I would gut the entire department and never compromise. Thats what D&D fans deserve and thats what D&D fans want. Non-fluff reference or if it has fluff it has to be explained in detail.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 6, 2016 19:11:29 GMT -5
The social class table in UA helps put a limit on the "improved" races (gray elves and mountain dwarfs): mountain dwarfs are minimum UMC and gray elves are minimum LUC so if you don't roll at least that well you can't play one and have to play a high elf or hill dwarf instead.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 6, 2016 19:13:50 GMT -5
Oh, so using UA, PCs must roll for social standing class first, before rolling ability scores and selecting race, class, etc.? Is that the correct order to generate PCs with UA?
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Nov 6, 2016 21:36:05 GMT -5
Yep. Per UA social class is generated with ability scores, before class and race are chosen, and which classes and races you're allowed to choose are affected by social class the same as other stats.
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Post by Scott on Nov 6, 2016 22:20:28 GMT -5
I use social class, but I never let the rolls prevent a player from playing the class he or she wants. I'll always bump them to meet the min required.
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 7, 2016 8:10:02 GMT -5
I use social class, but I never let the rolls prevent a player from playing the class he or she wants. I'll always bump them to meet the min required. Charts is charts. I think that is the way to look at it. It always says roll a dice but its just a chart of information that has more power when considered rather than rolled. Its like the dungeon encounter charts. There a set of information but is that whats happening? No. Its a guideline for your own specific chart that fits the location and then that encounter in the same dungeon hallway that the party passed 30 times might not be a random encounter at all but rather might be encounters generated by area dynamics (conditional triggers, alarms elsewhere, timed routines, etc), player dynamics (history, actions, equipment, time bomb NPCs, etc) or cosmic dynamics (alignment, magical meddling, psionic buildup, etc.). That said, I will forego all character details to get a quick game going especially if its someone who is never going to rise above this session as a fighter. For example, if someone wants to be knight and they have a glib personality then they're making a fighter with auto-gentry mode (a default for all characters) If its truly advanced players then anything and everything goes. DRAGON MAGAZINE NPC classes, made up on the spot races, etc.
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 7, 2016 9:34:02 GMT -5
So UA basically made the high elf PC obsolete because thee gray elf has all the abilities as a high elf and it's got the intelligence ability bonus that the high elf doesn't have? Yes, I think so. I'm not a min-maxer, but why choose a high elf post-UA? There might be players who would choose to be disadvantaged for role-playing opportunities, but the problem is I don't think there are any that are obvious in Greyhawk/default AD&D world. By contrast, in Middle Earth, one might choose to be a high elf to be associated with Elrond, Rivendell, Eregion and Ring-lore, even if it meant giving up a stat bonus, because there is role-playing opportunity there. But none of that exists in the the Greyhawk/default AD&D world, at least not without extra DM effort. I think what happened was that EGG included some elf-variations that were intended to remain as NPC's in the MM but clamoring from players led him to include the sub-races as playable in UA... The elf sub-races retained flavor they had from the MM in the way of bonuses (wood elves stonger, gray elves more intelligent and generally superior), which makes sense, but results in making the high elf from the original PH into, simply, an inferior choice. 1978 PH was published, and the intent seemed to be like this: "As an elf character, you are aware there are other sub-races of elves with different characteristics who also exist in your world." Opportunity for setting development as characters travel around the continent and have adventures and meet other sorts of elves with different abilities and cultures. versus After 1977 MM came out, players find out there is a 'super-elf' sub-race and they all want to play it because it's better. Or stronger in the case of a wood elf. Then G3 came out and people wanted to play Drow characters. A lot of players probably house ruled these options in. By 1985 UA, EGG gives players what they want by officially including them in.
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 7, 2016 11:38:28 GMT -5
This may be why so many high elves are Trump supporters. They're downwardly mobile and angry; they used to have it all and they're not sure what happened. They know they don't identify with the elitist, educated gray elves with their LUC+ social status. Or liberal wood elf tree-huggers, God forbid. And the high elves aren't racist or anything, but let's face it: for the most part, the Drow are not sending us their best people.
"We're going to build a wall. And LOLTH'S GOING TO PAY FOR IT!!!"
It's going to be yuge.
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