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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 23, 2016 11:40:54 GMT -5
Yeah, there are plenty of "what if"s and you can drive yourself crazy rehashing it and trying to figure out where most of the blame should go.
Isn't this a particular form of insanity listed in the DMG?
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Aug 23, 2016 16:20:25 GMT -5
Everybody always mentions Brian Blume but never the other non-creative Blume. I believe that if it was just Gary, Dave and Brian you would have seen an entirely different picture unfold. No Dragonlance and no cold shoulder for the Greyhawk gang. It does seem like in the early days Brian Blume was kind of an amiable goof, not super-creative but very enthusiastic, perhaps not too bright, mostly happy to have a job that was "fun." I suspect he was cowed by his dad and brother and just went along with what they said, rather than being actively malicious, and he probably missed the good old days when it was just a half-dozen buds goofing around and playing games all day as much as anyone else did. Mike Breault had a story about how one day post-crash he was passing through one of the deserted cubicle-farms at TSR HQ and ran into what he at first thought was a homeless bum who was squatting in the empty office, but upon coming closer realized it was actually Brian Blume, president of the company, wandering around like he was in a daze.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 23, 2016 20:46:25 GMT -5
..and no Mike Breault!
That guy's name attached to a product is like instant death in his 1985 to 1988 tenure at "TSR":
RUINS OF ADVENTURE... BOOK OF LAIRS... DUNGEONEER'S SURVIVAL GUIDE... DRAGONLANCE ADVENTURES... All of which should have been golden D&D treasures no thanks to him!
I think his TSR career gem is the eating crow in SAGE ADVICE #118 (FEB 1987) over his bad editing but the best is the announcement of his upcoming PROTON FIRE RPG and subsequent demotion to a STAR FRONTIERS supplement before never ever coming out in any form.
No wonder that guy had issues!
Seriously, he "edited" MINES OF BLOODSTONE! He's like the godfather of 2E. The missing link!
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Aug 24, 2016 0:41:00 GMT -5
He really does personally embody pretty much everything that was rotten about TSR c. 1984-88.
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Post by Scott on Aug 24, 2016 9:28:08 GMT -5
The flavor text doesn't bother me. It's easy to ignore. 5E mechanics are like 3E taking a small step back towards 1E/2E. The default is too forgiving for bad play, which I don't like, and the rate of advancement is too fast, but I'll probably try running it soon. There will definitely be lots of flavor modifications.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 24, 2016 15:08:17 GMT -5
I just reviewed the list of monsters and the lich one I had glossed over. The lich casts an Imprisonment spell to feed their phylactery a living victim in 24 hours or they are destroyed. Wow thats pretty harsh!
WRONG!
The 9th level Imprisonment spell has been "updated" to have backdoors. One of the options is the original spell but it all goes away with a Dispel Magic and/or specific conditions of something reasonable and likely to come to pass.
Alright so they're a little lenient with the Dispel Magic right? How about a lot lenient. Its still a 3rd level spell but the original caster vs caster fairness is replaced by caster vs spell level easy street.
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Post by Scott on Aug 29, 2016 9:52:35 GMT -5
I did find something pretty cool in 5E. Demon lords have a madness inducing effect similar to insanity in a CoC game. Their whole being is so warped and steeped in Chaos that just being in their presence has a chance of causing insanity.
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 29, 2016 10:21:41 GMT -5
Did you buy the 5e rulebooks?
Last time I was at Eric's shop I was checking them out, but didn't feel persuaded to buy them.
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Post by Scott on Aug 29, 2016 10:25:45 GMT -5
Yeah, I bought them.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 29, 2016 13:08:15 GMT -5
I looked at the madness effect in an adventure called OUT OF THE ABYSS (its like a whacko Forgotten Realms 3rd edition universe in mood.)
The demon lord madness is a quick, descriptive statement of an evil "flaw" (curable) that is in line of the demon lord's sight or it could be part of the regional effects of where the demon lord's reside (the Abyss?). For example Orcus has:
1) moody/withdrawn, 2) hurting the weak compulsion, 3) lack of respect for dead bodies, 4) desire for undeath or 5) depression.
All are 1 out of 5 (20%) if demon lord dies madness fades in 1-10 days or it can be cured by remove curse (3rd level Cleric or Paladin spell)or dispel evil (5th level Cleric or Paladin spell which is like a combination of the classic 5th level dispel evil and 4th level exorcise spells in this instance its the "exorcise" effect).
I don't know it sounds good but the descriptive "regional effects" seem kind of standardized and weak in contrast to the regular monster versions in the MONSTER MANUAL.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Aug 29, 2016 13:36:14 GMT -5
I have only bought the 5e starter set. I have skimmed through the 5e rulebooks - they need lots of modding if I were to use them - and I am OK with doing self-mods. I am embedded into 1e rules, but agree that many by the book 1e rules are too cumbersome during play or just dumb {such as weapon speed factor, weapon versus armor type modifiers, one attack per fighter's level when fighting less than 1 HD opponents, etc.}.
I do have some ideas for specific mods to the 5e rules - some I like are variant rules scattered within the 5e rulebooks, but some of these variant rules I like better with further self-mod ideas I have.
I like the 5e advantage/disadvantage mechanic, which encourages tactical play. If I were to use critical hits, I would also add a self-modded injuries variant rule. {I did not DM 1e using critical hits}. I like the 5e massive damage variant rule, but would self-mod this as well for system shock effects.
First level 5e PCs seem roughly equivalent to third level 1e PCs. 5e monsters are tougher than 1e monsters {not the case with the stirge though}, excepting some of their special abilities power is curtailed from 1e, as detailed within Gene's previous post. Just try out a 5e orc, ogre, skeleton, or zombie versus the 1e versions. 5e monster artwork and style is vastly inferior to 1e MM.
5E level progression is way too fast for campaign use - I would mod 5e to divide all XP awarded by 5 and then I would be OK with using their level progression tables as is. In 5e, this means if you defeat an orc, I would award 20 experience points instead of 5e's 100 experience points award. keep in mind that in 5e, there are no experience points awarded for treasure, in contradistinction to 1e.
The adventure in the 5e starter set is a good introduction for new players - but I will make several mods to improve it and move it out of FR and into GH when I use it. Why would I ever use FR when I can DM in GH?
Dumb 5e stuff that needs variants used and/or modded: wands that recharge just because the sun comes up again the next day; resting/healing rules; bugbears are now medium size {1e=large}? wolves are now medium size {1e=small}?
Still thinking about surprise, initiative, and combat spell casting rules 5e versus 1e.
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Post by Scott on Aug 29, 2016 15:47:25 GMT -5
Hi Dave. If I play 5E it would probably to try to write something for publication, so I'd probably play as BtB as possible. For my own home campaign I'll stick to 1E.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 29, 2016 16:09:26 GMT -5
I thumbed through that Starter Set adventure LOST MINE OF PHANDELVER and its nothing memorable there. It might be good to kindle a fire if playing a game of D&D outdoors...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Aug 29, 2016 17:04:30 GMT -5
HAHA - it's way too hot here for a fire - and the house air conditioning went out - sweating bullets!
Scott - hope to check out publication of yours in future!
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Post by Scott on Aug 29, 2016 19:32:51 GMT -5
5E, and D&D for years has suffered from overactive drow syndrome. They're everywhere, even the Lost Mine. Not that long ago they were mythical, a legend, and now they're like the hipster douch bags of D&D turning up everywhere.
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 30, 2016 7:23:24 GMT -5
I agree the Drow have been overused. I'd be very hesitant to using them in a campaign for that reason, especially as the main villains behind a conspiracy, or having there be a "one good" dark elf... I can imagine the groans. But I still love them as monsters. They're one of EGG's greatest creations.
I started out playing Holmes basic, and the first D&D set I owned was Moldvay, but soon after that I switched to AD&D when I bought the core rule books and some modules, used, from some kids at school. The G & D modules were among those, and completely captured my imagination. I remember reading them studiously in the summer of 1982, and thinking about them while I was mowing neighbors' lawns (my first job, and the first of many jobs where I would think about D&D stuff while bored). The Drow fascinated me, but even then I realized they weren't the sort of thing you encountered in the ruins outside of the local village. It was more like getting a glimpse of this distant, wondrous environment that your players could only get to via a Jules Verne "Journey to the Centre of the Earth" epic adventure. The Vault of the Drow might as well be on another planet!
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Post by Scott on Aug 30, 2016 9:15:15 GMT -5
I'm still a big fan. I can't see myself using them as some sort of major plot element in a standard adventure I'd write, but I still consider running an underdark campaign.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 30, 2016 12:20:16 GMT -5
Drow proliferation has a place in real D&D but its something that needs effort every single time. It doesn't come as easy as "de-pignosing" an orc.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Aug 31, 2016 7:29:16 GMT -5
Yes, the unveiling of the drow threat in G3 captured my imagination for the game as a pre-teen DM.
A friend of mine had the 0E books, and I jumped quickly from the original Basic D&D set into 1E as the rulebooks were being published. I remember scraping together $ from my paper route and working at the neighborhood pool, but I always had to make choices what to buy because the 1E books and modules came out faster than my available $ could buy them! Once hooked on AD&D, I forgot about playing AVALON HILL'S MAGIC REALM any longer! I remember the excitement each time I had enough $ saved for my next purchase, riding my bike a couple of miles to the Pied Piper shop in Danville CA. My Dad gave me an old work briefcase for all my gaming stuff to transport from house to house on my bike wherever I was going to DM next.
I never had a campaign with enough surviving PCs of high level to be able to DM through the GD series, and would not have used Q1 as written, if I had adventurers get through Vault of the Drow...
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 31, 2016 7:30:04 GMT -5
De-pignosing the orc hasn't been that easy, either. Just look at the D&D cartoon, or Otherworld miniatures. The pig-noses usually gets attributed to having their origin in David C. Sutherland's illustration in the Monster Manual, because orcs are not explicitly described as pig-nosed in EGG's description of the monster, nor in Tolkien's description of orcs. There was, however, a Hildebrandt paiting in a Tolkien calendar in 1976 that shows orcs as being particularly piggish or animalistic looking: www.theonering.com/galleries/professional-artists/the-two-towers/merry-and-pippin-captured-by-orcs-greg-and-tim-hildebrandtBut if you go further back, Maleficent's goons in SLEEPING BEAUTY (1959) are humanoid troops armed with pole arms and some have piggish noses and other animalistic features (if you de-comic Maleficent's goons, they might not be a bad approximation of humanoid troops in a D&D game). www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6HEG-hw82wDisney in turn took their inspiration from Renaissance painters, like Bosch, who depicted demons as humanoids with animal parts and features (and that brings us full circle back to things like vrocks, hezrou, glabrezu, etc.).
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