DJ to AD&D Conversion

[geneweigel]

I'm continuing the post that I made yesterday on the Necropolis Sequel thread:

I think that I've figured out DJ monsters to AD&D monsters. The NECROMANCER GAMES conversion seems like it got willy nilly in some parts. SLAYER'S GUIDE TO THE UNDEAD and D20 NECROPOLIS (both 2002) have D20 versions of ghul, gholl, the gholle, and the ghulaz which are word for word with arbitrary movement of text on one. The appendix of D20 NECROPOLIS' "Ghoul of Khemit" does not convert well (4 HD) but in the encounter in Rahotep's temple they left more convertible stats matching the other ghoul-like creatures (10HD). It seems they arbitrarily made it weaker to 4HD to match the D&D version (2HD) a little better.

Anyway. The key is add all three trait scores MENTAL (M), PHYSICAL(P), SPIRITUAL(S) round out then divide by 35. This will give HD value. Everything else is case by case damage and armor compared to other monsters.


Alright, I tried the formula on some of the sample monsters and it seems that its right except if its not an obviously supernatural thing then ignore "M" and "S" then just divide the "P" by 35.

[Scott]

I'll have to try some of these when I get home.

[foster1941]

I converted the Tomb of Rahotep to AD&D a few years back for a game-day thing. By and large it was done ad-hoc and eyeballed - rather than an actual "conversion" it was more "make up new AD&D stats that are about as tough as it seems like this monster was intended to be." I don't have either my copy of Necropolis or the notebook with the conversions at all handy to check, but it would be interesting to see how closely my "gut" numbers come to your formula.

[geneweigel]

Here is some background. Looked at BAC which is "basic attack chance", which everything has, and at first it seemed it would plug in to thAC0 but its generic almost negligibly the same universally.

So I had to core it down to something else that popped between things and matched the creatures okayed by Gary for the undead book because his is t'roul from the SLAYER'S GUIDE synchs up to those thoul stats as well.

[geneweigel]

This would be the perfect time for GT to come back from the Outer Planes!

[foster1941]

Semi-related to this, and at risk of being self-serving, I've just finished up and posted an "AD&D Companion" (linked in my sig) that collects miscellaneous Gygaxiana that didn't make it into a rulebook prior to Gary's ouster as well as all of my own house-rule and expansion stuff from the past dozen or so years, including a bunch of conversions from DJ and LA to AD&D. Take a look, and then tell me everything I did wrong

[Scott]

Bahh, it's blocked from my work computer. I'll take a look when I get home.

[geneweigel]

Roger Moore? ROGER MOORE!!!

For something like this I think it would better serve you if you showed what you added because your input could easily be overlooked.

What are you referring to? The mystic and mountebank?

PS: Its weird that of the three thief-like orders (READ: classes) in LEJENDARY ADVENTURES, the Desperado (a gangster), the Outlaw (a mugger/highwayman) and the "Rogue" (an amoral crook who could be an agent, a spy, a "mercenary assassin" or a cat burglar), the rogue has a rank (level name) of "mountebank".

[foster1941]

The stuff that's credited to someone else (including everything in the appendices) is straight copy & paste with at most very light editing by me (e.g., in the Gygax "Sorcerer's Scroll" stuff I snipped out the paragraphs where he talked about current events at TSR and such). There are also a few other bits that I gleaned from Gary Dragon articles - like elf cavaliers having the same level-limits as fighters, barbarians not requiring training, monks and paladins not being able to dual-class, acrobats with high Dex scores having improved thief abilities, and the list of adjectives for character appearances - sprinkled throughout the main text but not specifically identified.

The rest is me, either adapting stuff from Gary's later games into AD&D-ese (joss, knacks & quirks, the "seventh son" table, the weapon list, the bard spellsongs, most of the jester abilities, etc.), taking inspiration from Gary's suggestions to come up with something that I think feels like what he was probably going for (the mystic and mountebank), rearranging existing info into a more concise and user-friendly (to me) format (the animal and vehicle carrying capacities table, men-at-arms hiring procedure, wilderness adventuring chapter, town establishment list, and Greyhawk deity/cleric details), or just compiling various house-rule "fixes" I've accumulated in the margins of my books over the years (the notes on demi-human movement rates and spells and which weapons require two hands, the revised acrobat ability table, the expanded secondary skill table, the various Monster Manual notes (except the revised damage for dragons - that's from an article in Dragon #98 that Gary gave his stamp of approval to a couple issues later).

Re: Roger Moore, yeah, I don't really like his stuff either - the Astral Plane article goes on forever and ever dwelling on boring minutia (and almost all of the actual substabce is regurgitated from Deities & Demigods and module Q1), and his new monsters and deities have cheesy flavor, and even his rewrite of the half-ogre made it seem less cool (the version I included owes way more of Gary's version than his), but for better or worse Gary went out of his way in the pages of Dragon to praise all that stuff and give it his "official" blessing, so it felt necessary and appropriate to include it given the mandate I'd set myself - to compile everything Gary-written and Gary-approved for AD&D that hadn't been collected into a rulebook while he was still in charge at TSR.

[GRWelsh]

Fine job on the AD&D Companion, foster.

[Scott]

106 pages! That's awesome. I feel like a giant, lazy procrastinator now.

[geneweigel]

I went over the mystic. Where does the neutral alignment option referenced from? Are most of the spells just made up?

[foster1941]

Neutral alignment option is because the class feels neutral-aligned to me but Gary's description in Dragon #65 specifically said they were good-aligned, so I compromised with myself and included both. Spells are made up (or adapted from other sources - I lifted and modified a few Shukenja spells from OA that seemed like good fits, and a couple that Grodog adapted from d20) based on what seemed to fit the flavor of a "New Age" psychic/medium/fortune-teller, which is (AFAICT) what Gary intended for the class to be (the Dragon #65 blurb is very vague, but Mythus points more clearly in that direction). I had adapted spells from Mythus for the bard but doing so ended up being such a boring slog that I didn't want to do the same for this class, especially since the DJ and AD&D magical cosmology is significantly different (Heka vs slots, alignment vs ethos, different planar structure, etc.) that it would've made a conversion tricky (and I'd have had to effectively re-write a bunch of stuff anyway).

[geneweigel]

I talked to him about influences and he basically read all those magic characters of the 40s. I would consider the Margaret St Clair story SIGN OF THE LABRYS as well with all the pre-modern "wicca" references. That and the Bela-Chandu movies because that definitely came up. I think the mystic is more like Zatanna the Magician from the early Action Comics of the 40s.

[geneweigel]

Generally, westerner overall but imported guru gurutechniques I thunk what he was aimining for.

[geneweigel]

Oops, I wrote "Zatanna", I meant "Zatara the magician". The topic came up because of Gardner Fox comics and even though "Zatara" was created by a different writer (Fred Guardineer) Gardner Fox did a lot of stories. Anyhow thats how I got on the subject of magic and Shazam and all that golden age shit he was a fan of.

[geneweigel]

Zatara would say words backwards to make magic and he, like many of the magic characters of radio /comics/movies of the 30's/40's/50's, were Westerners who learned Eastern weirdness but laid it out Westerner style. So I think that is what the mystic is. The druid is a quasi-classical entity brought into quasi-medieval environs and turned "regular". And think that was the aim with the mystic especially since the DJ version makes all the Wicca references.

[geneweigel]

The mountebank flimflam roll looks okay. I guess its sort of based on the assassination table like an "instant scam", etc..

[geneweigel]

One thing that I almost forgot. The plug-in to magic has either M-U or illusionist. Illusion and detection might be something to emphasize on.

[geneweigel]

Okay here is my last heavy look at the AD&D COMPANION pdf:


CHARACTER GENERATION SUMMARY Needs Sources So DM Can Comfortably Choose
MISCELLANEOUS HOUSE RULES AND RULINGS Ditto
CHARACTER RACES Need to show revisions
Half-ogres Ditto
CHARACTER CLASSES
Mystic basically a good choice as an alternative class
Hunter ditto
Thief-Acrobat (Changes and Additions) Okay but some need explanation as to why
Mountebank same as above classes
Bard (Revision) This is a rattled around Welsh bard from DRAG#56 (DEC 1981). Okay. Not a fan of bards in general.
Jester Kuntz had spells for the version featured in MAZE OF ZAYENE
SECONDARY CHARACTERISTICS These all seem easily used but source citation (e.g. these are from my campaign, magazine, Gygax, etc.) would make them more interesting.
EQUIPPING THE CHARACTER Ditto
WEAPONS Ditto
HIRELINGS Ditto
CHARACTER SPELLS
Spell Tables
Mystic Spells
Mountebank Spells
Bard Spells this has good referencing to source
THE ADVENTURE
Wilderness Adventuring
THE CAMPAIGN
Common Establishments and Other Locations
WORLD OF GREYHAWK
Character Homelands
Common Deities
Cleric Characteristics These last few starting to get a singular campaign rules feel
MONSTER MANUAL (Revisions and Corrections) source?

APPENDIX I. THE ASTRAL PLANE Okay
APPENDIX II. THE INNER PLANES Okay,
APPENDIX III. DEITIES AND THEIR FAITHFUL OKay
APPENDIX IV. “PERSON”-TYPE MONSTERS Okay
APPENDIX V. SUPPLEMENTAL ATTACK MATRIX FOR MONSTERS Okay
APPENDIX VI. NEW MAGIC ITEMS Okay
APPENDIX VII. NEW MONSTERS Source above each monster would be more interesting
APPENDIX VIII. HUMANOID MINOR DEITIES Okay but these have that random and disjointed Moore feel that I would just gut even though his others were in UA