foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Feb 4, 2016 16:48:23 GMT -5
While I'm not interested in trying to run a dungeon-oriented campaign set in Greyhawk (I've got my own game-world and dungeon for that), it's still a central feature of the setting so I'm not satisfied having it as a big void with a "do not enter" sign hanging at the entrance either. While the dungeon has been mostly "looted" a decade or more prior and exists mostly as an historical curiosity, it still exists and characters might have reasons for wanting or needing to venture there from time to time. Alas, none of the various published versions are anywhere near satisfactory - the three TSR/WotC versions don't even bear mentioning, and Castle Zagyg is also unacceptable, both because it's unfinished and because there's too much detail in it that's too contrary to the published World of Greyhawk. So, in place of trying to use any of those, I've decided on a sort of semi-abstract "mock-up" version of the dungeons - a listing of the levels along with the level-location of various "known features" but no actual maps or matrices. If a party ventures into the dungeons and don't have some shortcut means of skipping straight to their destination and are just wandering, then the maps are the dungeon geomorphs, the encounters are determined via DMG Appendix A and the Monster & Treasure Assortment, and when I feel it's appropriate (or a "special" comes up on the random room-contents roll) I'll stick in one of the special features. That model isn't enough to support full, persistent campaign-style play in the dungeons, but it does seem sufficient for what I have in mind - the dungeons as someplace that might be visited occasionally, as a backdrop for other business.
The issue is that I haven't actually made that "known features by level" list. Has someone else made one that I can borrow and embellish? I know there were multiple versions of the dungeons (and mutually contradictory accounts of what was located where) and I'm not particularly interested in what's most historically accurate, but rather in what "feels" right and has all the iconic locations and encounters included - the Old Guard kobolds, the fountain of endless snakes, Bottle City, the Great Stone Face, the jeweled man, Obmi's lair, the Black Reservoir, the Living Room, the Machine Level, the gates to Dungeonland and the Isle of the Ape and the Teeth of Barkash-Nour, the maze of invisible monsters, etc. - regardless of whether those things were found only in the first version, only in the second version, were ported over from El Raja Key, or whatever.
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Post by Scott on Feb 4, 2016 19:49:52 GMT -5
I have a couple of lists floating around. I'll see what I can find.
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Post by Scott on Feb 4, 2016 19:53:38 GMT -5
Probably seen this list. It's my starting point: The first level was a simple maze of rooms and corridors, for none of the participants had ever played such a game before. The second level had two unusual items, a Nixie pool and a fountain of snakes. The third featured a torture chamber and many small cells and prison rooms. The fourth was a level of crypts and undead. The fifth was centered around a strange font of black fire and gargoyles. The sixth was a repeating maze with dozens of wild hogs (3 dice) in inconvenient spots, naturally backed up by appropriate numbers of Wereboars. The seventh was centered around a circular labyrinth and a street of masses of ogres. The eight through tenth levels were caves and caverns featuring Trolls, giant insects and a transporter nexus with an evil Wizard (with a number of tough associates) guarding it. The eleventh level was the home of the most powerful wizard in the castle. He had Balrogs as servants. The remainder of the level was populated by Martian White Apes, except the sub-passage system underneath the corridors which was full of poisonous creatures with no treasure. Level twelve was filled with Dragons. The bottom level, number thirteen, contained an inescapable slide which took the players clear through to China, from where they had to return via 'Outdoor Adventure'. It was quite possible to journey downward to the bottom level by an insidious series of slanting passages which began on the second level, but the likelihood of following such a route unknowingly didn't become too great until the seventh or eight level.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Feb 4, 2016 20:06:58 GMT -5
I have seen that list before, but it's more convenient to have it posted here than to try to remember where I saw it (the Europa article?). That's exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for, and has a couple things I'd forgotten about (nixie pool on level 2, "strange font of black fire" on level 5, etc.). Anything else similar that you have (for either version of the castle) will be greatly appreciated
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Post by Scott on Feb 4, 2016 20:21:34 GMT -5
You may know a lot of this already, but just stream of consciousness writing here: There is some debate on the changed layout. One version is that 2.0 had one large level one with four separate dungeons descending from the north/south/east/west sides. What I remember hearing was there were three levels down from the surface, and then the four separate dungeons started descending from the N/S/E/W sides of level 3. Ernie agreed with this version recently. At about level 9 they combined again into a single dungeon level. The store rooms from Yggsburgh is actually very close to the original level 1 map. But Gary always a had a lot more empty space. The wights in the cell block/torture chamber encountered by Robilar and Melf were on level 3. Bottle City was on 2. The prison of the 9 was a 4. The Black Reservoir was a 4. The pool area where Erac died was a 6. Per Gronan Gary placed a troll on level 1, but the stench was a clue. Obmi + gnolls 3 or 4. Otto was on 2. I think the original 3 way gate that accessed Isle of the Ape was on 10. The Great Stone Face, level 6 I think. Frazz Urb Luu prison, if I ever knew the level, I forget. I have the Teeth of Barkash-Nour, but I don't think it gives a level placement. The jeweled man varied I think. Zagyg's Needle in a hay stack. All for now.
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Post by Scott on Feb 4, 2016 20:23:12 GMT -5
Black dragon in stasis that dissolved Robilar's charmed gargoyle was on 6 I think.
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Post by Scott on Feb 4, 2016 21:49:06 GMT -5
The Arena of Death was on 3/a sub-level of 3.
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Post by Scott on Feb 4, 2016 22:41:21 GMT -5
I used to have a bunch of e-mails from Ernie talking about early Tenser adventures. I had them all compiled in a word doc that I lost when that computer crashed. He was pretty funny, he almost talked in character, as Tenser, as he was telling stories, especially when he was talking about his rivalry with Robilar. He talked about the original upper works; it was nothing. Gary must have taken some of his early dungeon ideas and included them in S1, I remember something happened and Tenser ended up naked on the castle yard. I am tempted to go to Gary Con just to have a few beers with him and talk history.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 5, 2016 11:00:42 GMT -5
You could probably lose your mind trying to figure out Castle Greyhawk.
Castle Greyhawk potential product and potential addons (e.g. Eneever Zig's front staircase secret door levels from NIGHT ARRANT novel was an expansion that never was.).
Castle Greyhawk as played and Kuntz's gamplay as a separate DM (e.g. realized somewhat in Maure Castle, etc.).
Gygax's looking back comments from new age DRAGON MAGAZINE in the 2000s where he mentions names for areas ("the Labyrinth", "Caves", Caverns", "Crypts" with some being lesser (side "B" map?) and greater (Main descending castle basement?).
Every time that I had asked questions about it there was the idea that it was pending publication and I'd have to wait.
It was his idea to put up signs on my website to say "GREYHAWK CONSTRUCTION COMPANY" so that was the most solid thing that I knew about the castle and the fact that he was Zagyg personified.
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Post by grodog on Feb 23, 2016 0:47:27 GMT -5
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 23, 2016 14:12:58 GMT -5
I just remembered. There are shortcuts that flying monsters use to get to the surface from a story that Gary was telling me about Rob when he stopped me and Rob by the escalators at GenCon 2002 to talk about the moves my character "Grok" was doing in Rob's game, that Rob had mentioned to him. I think "insane" was the word he used. Anyway, he was saying Rob flew back to the surface with a black dragon after him. I think he said it was the 10th level at least and it involved two balrogs.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Feb 23, 2016 14:18:32 GMT -5
I'd forgotten about that "Castle Greyhawk Tribute" page Zenopus Archives did a couple years ago. That, along with the extra info you guys have posted here, is pretty close to what I think I'd need for my purposes - the Greyhawk Castle dungeons become, essentially, a set of key famous "landmark" locations (1 or 2 per level) floating in a sea of geomorphic maps (set 1 for levels 1-8 or so, set 3 for levels 9+, and set 2 for those levels noted as being caverns).
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Post by Scott on Feb 23, 2016 14:51:05 GMT -5
Any thoughts on the 6th and 7th levels? The repeating maze and circular labyrinth?
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 24, 2016 15:50:23 GMT -5
I'd forgotten about that "Castle Greyhawk Tribute" page Zenopus Archives did a couple years ago. That, along with the extra info you guys have posted here, is pretty close to what I think I'd need for my purposes - the Greyhawk Castle dungeons become, essentially, a set of key famous "landmark" locations (1 or 2 per level) floating in a sea of geomorphic maps (set 1 for levels 1-8 or so, set 3 for levels 9+, and set 2 for those levels noted as being caverns). My thoughts exactly. Using the geomorphs, at least as a basis, plus the random dungeon generator and random monster charts from the DMG, with a few pre-set encounters from the assembled lore, seems like the way to go.
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Post by grodog on Feb 24, 2016 16:44:19 GMT -5
Any thoughts on the 6th and 7th levels? The repeating maze and circular labyrinth? I'd long thought that nearly-duplicate levels (or, multiple levels with sections that appeared nearly identical) with teleporters between them would be a lot of fun (and challenging!) to explore. That was inspired more by comments in Roger Musson's "The Dungeon Architect" rather than from the original castle, but that's how I'd approach trying to replicate a repeating maze/labyrinth environ. Allan.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 26, 2016 17:22:04 GMT -5
I consolidated the list where the side levels might be the same (e.g. the orc level, etc.) and left out Blackmoor because thats a whole other headache:
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Post by Scott on Feb 27, 2016 11:47:33 GMT -5
The expanded dungeons muddle things up some. After the first, or maybe third level, the dungeon split into four separate dungeons that later re-merged into a single dungeon around the 9th level. So there were four level 4s, four level 5s, etc. I think some of the side levels may have actually been levels, or parts of levels, in the expanded dungeon. The pools level, for example, may have been one one of the 6th levels in the expanded dungeon.
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Post by grodog on Feb 27, 2016 16:01:52 GMT -5
And many of Rob's levels from El Raja Key were incorporated into the Expanded Castle too. So, sorting through which was which is definitely a non-trivial task....
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 27, 2016 16:45:40 GMT -5
The Zagyg interactions of the ISLE OF THE APE adventure are plane-bending so I could imagine Iuz being multiple within the dungeon and of different forms. Apply that theory to any feature of entire levels.
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Post by Scott on Feb 28, 2016 9:23:44 GMT -5
The set up I have is the first four levels are 'almost' mundane, stuff you'd expect to find in a castle: storage, dungeons, crypts, etc. These levels pre-date Zagig moving in. There is some weirdness, but it's more of a prelude of things to come. Levels 5 and deeper are really where Zagig let his eccentricities off the leash, and the PCs should never know what to expect.
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