Greyhawk City freed from Castle Greyhawk?

[howandwhy99]

In this thread,
doomsdaygames.proboards.com/thread/575/greyhawk-great-kingdom

there was a lot of interesting discussion about how the Great Kingdom may have rule over some portion of Greyhawk prior to 498. Including the time of Zagyg and Castle Greyhawk.

Is it possible that whole territory was simply unclaimed "wild lands" like the Wild Coast?

The despotrix of Hardy doesn't feel like it was created as a Great Kingdom enclave. Most of that timeline "Greyhawk" was supposed to be a fishing village developed into a town by a "local warlord" and his son Ganz. And only becoming a major metropolitan city during Zagig's time.

Is it possible that the landgraf Zagig Yragerne was, after his vanishing and the curse fell over his castle, the "overlord" the city declared itself free from? Becoming the Free City (state) of Greyhawk then, but also an independent city state prior?

(so the heraldry would indicate broken chains atop castle greyhawk specifically and six golden marks beneath)

[geneweigel]

You can come up with something for any campaign just as you feel because thats what the purpose of the folio and gazetteer were for. There is a lot of contradiction in what Gary Gygax assumed people interested in a medieval-like world would know and the idea of a "free city" is one of those things absolutely. Gary would talk about Greyhawk as if it was some place you could visit it seemed which freaked the shit out of me.

[howandwhy99]

Thanks for responding. I understand multiple interpretations are possible. But there is so little I know of from Gary about the castle and city it's hard to know what's common knowledge from any who had contact with his home game.

I mean, I prefer my interpretation, but I don't care to run into lots of contradiction later. If, say, something came to my attention from the Gord the Rogue books or elsewhere possibly.

[GRWelsh]

The interpretation I've always favored is similar to what Scott wrote in that other thread: "Another possibility is that Greyhawk was, for all intents and purposes, independent during Zagyg’s reign due to the decline of the Great Kingdom, but the city never made a formal announcement. The 498 date could just be the date of the official announcement, which may correspond to the date of the first Lord Mayor/Oligarchy, as opposed to some noble overlord."

I think it works equally well for a distantly receded Great Kingdom or the Ganz-Zagyg line of nobles that have been absent for a time, or even both.

Perhaps the declaration of being a free and independent city was just a way of the new regime formalizing its own legitimacy as a government, such as when the council of Directors/Oligarchs formed.

[geneweigel]

Talking to Gary about what Greyhawk was conceived as made it more interesting to me but at the same time made me realize how much my cityscape, that was steamrolled, smashed and reformed by the rotating co-DMs into "our late 1980's Greyhawk city campaign", was completely different in scope. I think my "city" fit more of what I assumed Greyhawk would be but ultimately was not.

[howandwhy99]

My gut check of what Greyhawk City is: (576CY)
A large, highly diverse metropolitan city almost entirely created by:
1. Trade and ship borne travelers from all compass points outward. This due to being the only viable water route out of the Nyr Dyv, the mouth waters of most of the north, to the southern seas.
2. A "boomtown" era where fantastic treasures were found, and rumors thereof, in the hills near the city and the stupendous castle dungeons of an archwizard who shaped the growth of the city.
3. A Free City ruled over by none, where advancement was possible without an overseeing "Lord" to appease. Where all alignments and points of view rubbed elbows with others, but hardly displayed openly. And Neutrality (like Boccob the Uncaring) was the default position of the powerful in a place well known for/as "The city of wizards and thieves"
4. And initially due to it being a "hidden gem" in a soil rich river plain protected on almost all sides from easy, large-scale incursions.

But more importantly, what about your campaign highlighted what was so different in Gary's understanding?

[geneweigel]

Free city versus free city.

Lords still have servants in a free city for example. I kind of looked the other way with stuff like that but Gary reminded me that "arch" means king (archdevil="king devil", oligarch="king with a few others", etc.). The Foreign quarter isn't a ghetto its the public entrance for dealing with outsiders. Freedom is bought one way or the other. Usage of the word "liberty" in regards to the city of Greyhawk was non-stop.

My city has been redefined by how it differed and what I played it as and its wilder than ever.

[howandwhy99]

Yeah, an oligarchy isn't the freest of societies, but anyone could ostensibly be considered free. Even those who sold themselves into servitude. There's no law of the land to oppress you, but neither will it save you. I imagine leaders who are self-appointed and hold authority positions not by consent, but influence. And the mosaic of mixed cultures and competing/cooperating power groups leads to all manner of people in all manner of social situations. Even the powerless have veritable gangs like the Beggar's Guild to survive in the cordoned off section of Old City.

I think of Greyhawk City as alignment neutral, but highly varied. Even a holy temple or teaching academy would have walls and a paid guard. The D&D game in miniature. Well, maybe not played small, but certainly near.

[howandwhy99]

All of which reminds me, Zagyg is neutral. And he's the guy who imprisoned a bunch of gods to become one. And per Castle Zagyg, he built that castle and dungeon stew to be the spicy, hodgepodge porridge it is.

Which is to say, he created the City of Greyhawk as well. It's wealth, it's importance, it's attractiveness, it's unique characteristics I wouldn't set down to random probabilities of nature. Perhaps more the eccentricities of someone capable of forcing nature's hand? The city is the kitchen sink it is, and yet functional powerhouse, because of his designs. That's the way he likes it.