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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 15, 2013 13:55:53 GMT -5
Scott, did you know there is a "Goblin Street" in Paris?
I thought it was great, but was disappointed to find out in French it just means street of dyers or tapestry manufacturers, or something like that.
I've often wondered if major cities in fantasy campaigns ever had humanoids living in them. I've gone back and forth on this.
If a neutral/multi-aligned city like Greyhawk tolerates evil temples and priests, would it then allow humanoids inside the gates?
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Post by Scott on Oct 15, 2013 14:37:39 GMT -5
It mentions that in the Guide. Greyhawk is listed as tolerating humanoids.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 15, 2013 17:00:34 GMT -5
Wait. The street is named after someone named "Gobelin" originally from Northern France who is dead. Goblins are named after a legendary spirit named "Gobelinus"who haunted a ruins in Northern France. Gobelin surname derives from Gobelinus. So, all you need is a haunting and technically it could be GOBLIN STREET...
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 16, 2013 10:23:19 GMT -5
Do you guys think the humanoids tolerated in a predominantly human and neutrally aligned city like Greyhawk would be limited to slaves and bodyguards brought in by others, or that there could be sections of the city that are orc, goblin, hobgoblin, etc.?
Somehow, the latter view seems to tip it over into an evilly aligned city, like a Molag, Dorakaa or Highport.
I can't see Greyhawk having a Goblin Street.
Come to think of it, I think there was a time when Scott was DM and my evil cleric tried to bring in a captured goblin into the city, and the gate guard said, "You can't bring him in here!"
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 16, 2013 10:40:57 GMT -5
I just remembered a setting Eric had in one of his games. There was a city, Rianka, that had a ruling class and the lower class. The ruling class was led by a fighter, Lord Goth (?), who commanded a force of black dragons. The lower class was made up of orcs, who lived in the slums. The odd thing that I remember was the orcs were oppressed and Eric presented them in a sympathetic light, as if to imply orcs weren't all bad by nature. I think there was some scenario about meeting an orc in the city who wasn't "all bad."
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 16, 2013 13:25:04 GMT -5
Yeah, Greyhawk has humanoids in plain sight even during the day! Here is a quote from CITY OF HAWKS (NOV 1987) Chapter Four page on the humanoid dynamic within the city: Chapter 4
The lightless temple, the place where vile and degenerate and wholly evil folk came to pay homage to Nerull, was still and dark that night. Since that condition was usual for the place, no passerby who dared to look would have noticed anything out of the ordinary. But no one passed by anyway—not after dark. This place was shunned by all who walked abroad after nightfall. Even the humans and humanoids who considered themselves among the "faithful" normally stayed well away after sundown, for they were afraid of being sacrificed to the evil deity they professed to venerate. This is correlated from the DMG (1978) CITY/TOWN ENCOUNTERS MATRIX for: Ruffians**: Daytime (5%), Nighttime (7%)
Ruffian encounters will be with from 7 to 12 (d6 + 6) fellows of shabby appearance and mean disposition. They will be armed with clubs and daggers, fighting at 2nd level ability and having 2 dice (d8) for hits. There is a 5% chance per ruffian encountered that an assassin of 5th to 8th level (d4 + 4) will be with the group. All weapons will be concealed.
** If desired, 1 in 4 can be half-orc or of humanoid race (goblin, hobgoblin, kobold, orc).
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 16, 2013 16:05:54 GMT -5
Do you think EGG envisioned humanoids actually living in Greyhawk? If so, in what sense? I can imagine kobolds and wererats skulking through the sewers, or humanoids among some human ruffians who lair somewhere in the Thieves Quarter, or even some charmed orc bodyguards -- with hoods drawn up -- accompanying a human wizard. That sort of thing. But not an actual Goblin Street with a tribe of goblins openly living somewhere in the city.
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Post by Scott on Oct 16, 2013 16:26:45 GMT -5
I see them as transients. Mercenaries looking for work. Hired muscle, etc. Not an actual community.
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Post by Scott on Oct 16, 2013 17:23:09 GMT -5
In the Guide, under An Examination of Populations, Distribution of humanoids: "Only Iuz, the Horned Society, and portions of the Great Kingdom allow the more civilized humanoids to dwell amongst the humanfolk, at least to any large scale. The large free cities are also known to allow various sorts of humanoids free access to their precincts."
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 17, 2013 9:33:16 GMT -5
Remember the ease that the D&D cartoon showing troglodytes comfortably walking around a large human city?
That concept was hammered away once that "Satanic" era came in and that "look Mom we're playing heroes" effect relegated to the city of Greyhawk as a "city of heroes", etc.
I think the 2E bowdlerization that we saw (wimpy monsters, less treasure, no devils/demons/daemons, etc) was constructed entirely on feelings generated during that time. So its kind of hard to imagine it.
Still... troglodytes? Walking around a city?
What the hell WAS Gary doing out in California?
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Post by Scott on Oct 17, 2013 10:33:29 GMT -5
Well, the D&D cartoon didn't start out as the D&D cartoon. It was another project that they took over and pounded some D&D into. So it's kind of hard to make a call on stuff like that. As for trogs, I'd say no, they stink. So they would have to sneak inm and stay hidden.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 17, 2013 12:23:44 GMT -5
Like Tiamat's unlimited breath weapons? If that was the case what would those weapons really be like in an actual D&D adventure? They could pass as artifacts that are linked but considering the Lolth being just a cute girl who turns into an awkward were-spider were they just beefed up regular items?
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Post by Scott on Oct 17, 2013 14:04:06 GMT -5
I have no idea. The general premise was already there; the kids and the roller coaster. It was very early in pre-production when it became D&D, but there was still a lot of stuff that made it in that Gary hated. He had plans to ditch Bobby and Uni, and go for a more straight D&D vibe. Some of that made it into the last episodes, where they kind of touch on becoming better at what they do.
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Post by Merkholz on Oct 18, 2013 1:22:19 GMT -5
I still think that Gary's vision was that humanoids entered and loitered in the cities rather than there being a "Goblintown" district. Since Greyhawk is a free city in every sense of the word I imagine that there would be very few limitations on who might enter the city or what their purpose might be. I also think that while Greyhawk might have fewer laws than more "civilized" or morally highstanding cities they would crack down harshly on those laws they see fit to uphold.
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 18, 2013 8:10:00 GMT -5
I've had conflicting impressions of Greyhawk over the years. Sometimes I get the impression it is similar to a frontier or wild west town, with very few rules and an "anything goes" kind of atmosphere -- a gold rush mentality with the gold being in the nearby dungeons. But the description of Greyhawk City in the Gord novels is this huge cosmopolitan city with high walls and gates everywhere. What is the point of all the gates and walls if no one is being restricted in where they go? Maybe some areas of Greyhawk are more free and open than others.
I think I agree about there not being any goblin street/goblin town in Greyhawk, but it is rather that they are permitted to enter -- at least certain precincts -- like the temple quarter where anything is evidently permitted, even temples of Nerull -- or they creep and sneak into certain areas like the Thieves Quarter, Beggars Quarter, sewers, etc. Or they're kept as slaves/servitors by some reclusive high level wizards or eccentric characters.
If you guys were DMing Greyhawk, how would you handle this? If the PCs tried to bring charmed or hired orcs or goblins into Greyhawk, what would happen? Would you have things like goblins, orcs, and kobolds showing up in places like the Green Dragon Inn in the Foreign Quarter, trying to get hired as mercenaries?
*
"We're mercenaries looking for coin," the goblin said. "Yark! Yark!" the kobold growled and barked. "Shut up!" the orc said, kicking the kobold. "We're trying to get work! Lousy cave-dog..."
"Say... did that kobold just call me a rube?" the PC fighter asked.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 18, 2013 11:21:01 GMT -5
You can ascertain how Gygax felt about humanoids when he put a lot of thought from his BLACKMOOR (1975) version of the updated sage "specialist" from the 3 book set (1974) to the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE (1979) version of the sage "expert hireling". The AD&D version coagulates into 3 all new and different fields of study based on the beings: 1) Humankind, 2) Demi-Humankind and 3) Humanoids & Giantkind. All are the same layout ( in red) with some missing for #3 H&G: -Art & Music MISSING Biology Demography History Languages Legends & Folklore Law & Customs-Philosophy & Ethics MISSING -Politics & Genealogy MISSING -Psychology MISSING Sociology Theology & MythSo what does this say? Its saying no wards or ghettos. Lets look at the "smarties"... Under TRIBAL SPELL CATERS (DMG 1979) page 40: Cavemen have a 4th level limit for witch doctor but are unlimited as "normal clerics" and humanoids and giants have either witch doctor or shaman with: Shaman (cleric with few select spells up to 4th level): 3rd ETTIN, OGRE, TROGLODYTE, TROLL 4th BUGBEAR, GNOLL, KOBOLD, ORC 5th GIANT (HILL, STONE, FIRE, FROST ONLY), GOBLIN HOBGOBLIN, LIZARDMAN Witch Doctor (cleric/magic-user with few select MU spells up to 2nd level): Not Allowed: ETTIN, OGRE, TROGLODYTE, TROLL, GIANT (HILL, STONE, FIRE, FROST) 2nd M-U/4th CLC: BUGBEAR, GNOLL, KOBOLD 4th M-U/4th CLC: ORC 2nd M-U/5th CLC: LIZARDMAN 4th M-U/5th CLC: GOBLIN, HOBGOBLIN LANGUAGES of NPCs (and magic swords)(DMG 1979) page 102:Brownie Bugbear Centaur Dragon, Black, Blue, Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold, Green, Red, Silver and WhiteDryad Dwarvish Elvish Ettin Gargoyle Giant, Cloud, Fire, Frost, Hill, Stone, and StormGoblin Gnoll Gnome Halfliing Hobgoblin Kobold Lammasu Lizard Man Manticore Medusion Minotaur Naga, Guardian, Spirit and Water Nixie Nymph Ogrish Ogre Magian Orcish Pixie Salamander Satyr Shedu Sprite Sylph Titan Troll Xorn then there is is the "draft" to consider from USE OF NON-HUMAN TROOPS (DMG 1979) page 105: Non-human troops, bugbears and humanoids, will be very difficult to handle. They will tend to fight amongst each other (cf. Compatibility Of Non-Human Troops below), fight with humans nearby - whether friendly or not (25% chance if friendly), run from battle if they see troops on their own side retiring or retreating, and fall to looting at the first opportunity. Communications are also a great problem. If the master is strong and powerful and gives them cause to fear disobedience, it will be of some help in disciplining such troops. Likewise, if there are strong leaders within each body of such troops, threatening and driving them on, they will be more likely to obey. Weakness in leadership, or lack of officering, will certainly cause these troops to become unruly and impossible to control. Probability of control for each type of troops is shown below:
No Officers & Weak Leader: BUGBEARS 30%, GNOLL 30%, GOBLINS 40%, HOBGOBLINS 20%, KOBOLD 25%, LIZARD MAN 10% and ORC 20%
No Officers & Strong Leader: BUGBEARS 50%, GNOLL 40%, GOBLINS 50%, HOBGOBLINS 40%, KOBOLD 50%, LIZARD MAN 60% and ORC 50%
Officers & Strong Leader: BUGBEARS 80%, GNOLL 80%, GOBLINS 90%, HOBGOBLINS 90%, KOBOLD 95%, LIZARD MAN 100% and ORC 90%
You can get a rough idea of their urban presence from all this. It certainly doesn't look like they'll be raising any families in any "Kobold Ward"!
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 18, 2013 13:34:22 GMT -5
Excellent compilation of info, Gene, but I'm not sure I follow. Why does all of that mean no humanoid wards or ghettos?
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 18, 2013 14:47:03 GMT -5
Excellent compilation of info, Gene, but I'm not sure I follow. Why does all of that mean no humanoid wards or ghettos? The sage bit shows there absolutely no pattern of city behavior foremost being politics if it was to have its own section of a city. The list of languages shows how not even that is a sign of civility as even non-city monsters have some a language NPCs can pick up (medusion?), the tribal spell casters shows even a caveman seems more in focus than humanoids and the troop behaviors might best explain what are these kobolds doing in the city. They're runoffs under someone else's command, etc.
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