|
Post by geneweigel on Nov 13, 2012 10:45:01 GMT -5
I recently saw an April 1983 issue of Polyhedron where Frank Mentzer discussed fighting gods. In that bit he mentions: Remember that Gary didn't write DDG. Have you seen the Solars and Planetars in DRAGON Magazine? These are some examples of how tough other-planar creatures can be, and they're just minions, for pete's sake! Can you imagine the abilities of the higher-ups, in player character terms? I'm waiting for Gary's GODS OF GREYHAWK book (as I'm sure you are) before I get into any serious character vs. deity affairs. Now later that year in 1983 the boxed set came out featuring all the gods already featured in DRAGON Magazines ranging from: NOV 1982 to MAR 1983 in Deities and Demigods of the World of Greyhawk by Gary Gygax as well the Quasi-Deities also featured in the MAR 1983 issue by Gary Gygax. Now if Mentzer is talking about this in the month before it must be a symptom of the failings starting at TSR that Gary mentioned. Why did the boxed set include them if they were intended for a book? Thats weird. Then almost immediately after the publication of the boxed set there is the Lakofka articles GODS OF THE SUEL PANTHEON in DRAGON magazines 86,87,88,89,90,92 starting in JUN 1984 to DEC 1984. Coincidence? Now we might have figured out why the Suel pantheon is so low caliber. ( i.e. name one that you really, really liked... see? ) It wasn't finished in time and it eventually wasn't good enough? Could be! REDO! REDO! I think this might have been a lack of vision in regards to having Rob Kuntz do the greater Great Kingdom and Len Lakofka do the Southeastern peninsula areas. What gods should have fallen into the lap of the Great Kingdom? GREATER
Procan OC Oceans, Seas, Salt NC m Zilchus OC Power, Prestige, Influence, Money, Business LN m
LESSER
Atroa OC Spring, East Wind NG f Celestian OC Stars, Space, Wanderers N(O) m Delleb O Reason, Intellect LG m Erythnul OC Hate, Envy, Malice, Panic CE(N) m Fharlanghn OC Horizons, Distance, Travel N(g) m Heironeous OC Chivalry, Honor, Justice, Valor LG m Hextor OC War, Discord, Massacre LE m Kurell O Jealousy, Revenge, Thievery CN m Pholtus OC Light, Resolution, Law LG(N) m Sotillion OC Summer, South Wind, Ease, Comfort CG(N) f Telchur OC Winter, North Wind, Cold CN m Velnius O Sky, Weather N(G) m Wenta OC Autumn, West Wind, Harvest CG f
DEMIGODS
Rudd OC Chance, Good Luck, Skill CN(G) f How many gods did Gary do for the Suel? None. Awful suspicious considering... THAT SAID. Are these Suel on the list Gygax ideas and the Lakofka versions not really the intent therefore the cancellation of the GODS OF GREYHAWK book in favor of an enhanced reprint?
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Nov 13, 2012 11:36:10 GMT -5
Those are odd comments for Frank to have made, considering many of EGG's gods of Greyhawk had already been published in Dragon Magazine at that point. And, they weren't exceptionally powerful compared to the DDG pantheon gods. I'd say they were roughly on the same scale of power.
This is the first I've ever heard of a GODS OF GREYHAWK book!
One thing that always seemed to be missing was a mythology, or a story, assciated with these gods. Like the detail with Heironeous and Hextor, I always wanted to know more about that... How did all of these gods relate to each other, what sorts of deeds had they done in the past that were famous among mortals, did they fight battles with giants and titans in ancient days, etc.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Nov 13, 2012 11:43:30 GMT -5
Hextor and Hieroneous are two of my favorites. I've outlined quite a bit of their history.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Nov 13, 2012 20:33:15 GMT -5
Those are odd comments for Frank to have made, considering many of EGG's gods of Greyhawk had already been published in Dragon Magazine at that point. And, they weren't exceptionally powerful compared to the DDG pantheon gods. I'd say they were roughly on the same scale of power. This is the first I've ever heard of a GODS OF GREYHAWK book! Well, he seems to specifically talking about the Planetars and Solars and they predate the Greyhawk gods by 3 months (#64 AUG 1982) so maybe he wrote the article prior to first DDGofWOG article in November of that year... I asked Gary specifically about the redo of DEITIES & DEMIGODS for "GYGAX SECOND EDITION" and he said the gods would have been adjusted to Greyhawk levels, redone, added to, and also would have considered his approach of avatars that 2E botched (e.g. Alternate or no Iuz per alternate WOG, etc.). One thing that always seemed to be missing was a mythology, or a story, assciated with these gods. Like the detail with Heironeous and Hextor, I always wanted to know more about that... How did all of these gods relate to each other, what sorts of deeds had they done in the past that were famous among mortals, did they fight battles with giants and titans in ancient days, etc. Yeah it would have been good for style too. I would have liked that very much however I would have liked even more a sort of detail in regards to Elemental Evil as an applied statistic! I talked with him twice about Elemental evil and got a headache each time.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Nov 13, 2012 20:54:40 GMT -5
Hextor and Hieroneous are two of my favorites. I've outlined quite a bit of their history. They were the first of the series in DRAGON #67 (NOV 1982) which also featured Saint Cuthbert and Iuz. Here is the opening line:
|
|
|
Post by Merkholz on Nov 14, 2012 4:17:54 GMT -5
I think that it's fair to say that Gary didn't have a unified vision of all things Greyhawk. He didn't work like Tolkien, deciding on every minute detail even though they had little to no importance to the intent of the creative work. I think that Gary worked more intuitively, e.g. when name-dropping in the Artifacts section of the DMG I'm pretty sure that not all of the details were part of a grand story where every detail was set and recorded for future reference.
IMO, Hextor and Heironeous were probably no more than a very interesting encounter deep in the bowels of Castle Greyhawk at first - he then added more layers to them as they went into published form but I doubt that he had more background thought out unless it pertained to their immediate use in his own campaign.
Sort of like a need-to-know-basis work strategy.
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Nov 14, 2012 10:35:40 GMT -5
I think that it's fair to say that Gary didn't have a unified vision of all things Greyhawk. He didn't work like Tolkien, deciding on every minute detail even though they had little to no importance to the intent of the creative work. I think that Gary worked more intuitively, e.g. when name-dropping in the Artifacts section of the DMG I'm pretty sure that not all of the details were part of a grand story where every detail was set and recorded for future reference. IMO, Hextor and Heironeous were probably no more than a very interesting encounter deep in the bowels of Castle Greyhawk at first - he then added more layers to them as they went into published form but I doubt that he had more background thought out unless it pertained to their immediate use in his own campaign. Sort of like a need-to-know-basis work strategy. I think this is most likely correct. But the glimpses are so tantalizing, it makes me want to know more about the gods and artifacts and relics... even when I realize there probably isn't more and never was.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Nov 14, 2012 10:45:54 GMT -5
Well, thats one way to look at it but it might not be exactly right. In regards to the planes and the gods the WOG was well developed and unpublished. The major factor was from this remark me on the details of the various npcs of the city of Greyhawk can shed some light on this: The sorry truth is that whatever notes I had regarding the WoG were mainly lost to me when Williams locked me out of my office and seized all my material--never recovered books autographed to me, my games collection, photos and paintings, personal correspondence, and notes regarding game design. Now that left a rather unpalatable taste in my mouth, as you might imagine. So anything I can offer is from such recall as I can manage now, over 15 years later... So it was a painful process doing that "World of Greyhawk" website with him. He'd get all pissed off about those days, etc., etc. but the fact that Gygax did more legwork than Tolkien ever did is absolutely true. In regards to what TSR did after Gygax left it was based on fan-based crap. This is what Gary had to say about Roger Moore's fan-based crap: AI/hough Mr. Moore calls Ihe attention of Ihe Gentle Reader to the "unofficial" nature of his offering, I must add that it is about as 'official" as is possible at Ihis time. A considerable amount of material is currently in development Steve Marsh, Eric Shook, Skip Williams, and this Humble Writer are developing modules and/or rule materials pertaining to the various planes. Similarly, Ihe sub-classes of mystic and savant inveterale planar travelers all, have not been fully developed as of this writing. Only these circumstances prevent me from being able to place the "official" aegis over Mr. Moore's superb effort. This in no way diminishes it, for the Worthy Author has devised much from little. Better still, he has done so in a manner befitting the game and the spiril of Ihe rules. What more needs be said? Read, enjoy, and then employ! Just because Edward Greenwood sprayed his creepiness all over Gary Gygax's excellent effort depicting the underworld of Hell in Gygax's MONSTER MANUAL II preview article doesn't mean there wasn't a foundation in development. They said in the preview section (before the actual Greenwood mess) that the folks at Dragon were given manuscripts of MMMII and its seen in Greenwood copying The Hierarchy of the Planes of Hell preview almost word for word to give the illusion that he was "in on it". Gygax admitted that MMII was a book designed to generate revenue. So he would have dismissed Moore's astral plane and Greenwood's hell as light takes to the full deal. To just assume that Hextor was just quick background is easy to say because it is no more. Its convenient. "The D&D that was is dead", etc.. But that thinking is for downers, I was believing it too. D&D is dead to Hasbro/WOTC/"old school". It isn't dead to those who don't subscribe to that shit.If you start believing that Gygax had a grand vision then the game is much easier to play. Fuck Tolkien. Tolkien's ship only floats when you back way the fuck off it and blur out the later Silmarillion shit and the way later Jackson shitpile. The four books are a good read but Tolkien was no gamer. Peter Cushing's acting has more to do at my game table than John Tolkien. That said, Gygax isn't the final word when I play D&D however he is ever present as the spirit of the best way to go about it.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Nov 14, 2012 18:07:05 GMT -5
Sorry that was a little bit of a rushed post I had a major situation going on and had to punch it out.
I should have mentioned his stance on gods that there were plenty of them and thats why there was always room for more. I had the Gygax campaign's grab-a-god technique as the defacto mode every time that I DMed by coincidental accident. The only thing that saved me from that is that my father's family was extremely religious ( all failed catholic priests, etc.) and time and time gaming elsewhere the religions that survived into modern times are always boring fantasy.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Nov 14, 2012 18:16:27 GMT -5
D&D is dead to Hasbro/WOTC/"old school". It isn't dead to those who don't subscribe to that shit.. What I mean by "old school" is the fake market or whatever it is that is out on the internet that is pretending to be a continuation of some sort when it just seems to be a way to market more 2E style vapid crap that reminds you of Troll Lords material, etc. I don't want to cite examples but all the ones associated with "clones" are spot on. People want material not processed clone vomit., etc., etc., etc.....
|
|
GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
|
Post by GT on Jul 11, 2014 16:22:08 GMT -5
Here's a god for ya, GW! And, yes, it does reference an old game from my youth!
KA-BALAHK (Neutrality, Fate, Integrity of Concordant Opposition) Greater Deity ARMOR: -10 MOVE: /15" HIT POINTS: 600 NUMBER OF ATTACKS: 2 DAMAGE/ATTACK: 10 - 100 SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below MAGIC RESISTANCE: 120% SIZE: L (50') ALIGNMENT: Neutral WORSHIPPERS’ ALIGNMENT: N/A SYMBOL: Black circle with a smaller white circle in its center PLANE: Concordant Opposition CLERIC/DRUID: 30th lvl cleric/15th lvl Druid FIGHTER: Nil MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 20th lvl in each THIEF/ASSASSIN: Nil MONK/BARD: Nil PSIONIC ABILITY: I Attack/Defense Modes: All/all S: N/A I: 26? W: 26? D: N/A C: 25 CH: 25
Ka-Balahk is a primordial deity that exists upon the Plane of Concordant Opposition where it apparently observes all that transpires. It is believed that this deity dwells within the Spire of Balance rising from the center of the Plane. It does not leave this plane, although it is able to send servitors (apollyon and grigori, usually) elsewhere if it deems it necessary. The gatekeepers of this plane, in fact, directly serve this deity. Its sole purpose seems to be observing the multiverse and serving as tribunal for and insuring the neutrality of its plane. The deities Boccob, Istus and Cyndor are said to commune with this being occasionally by telepathy, but it will not manifest for most other beings. Upon Oerth, only a handful of sages and savants are even aware of its existence. It is said that it can observe the multiverse of Oerth (including parallel worlds) and the Inner and Outer Planes from the beginning of time to the end. When the great powers of Good fought to contain Tharizdun, this entity did not participate, nor did it seem concerned about any ramifications if the Dark One had triumphed. Ka-Balahk is able to understand the various paths of time and probability that extend from specific events and examines the consequences thereof, but will not act unless said events threaten Concordant Opposition. Any creature or creatures that manage to battle past the Gatekeepers are subject to Ka-Balahk’s power of Opposition Equilibrium. For every foe present of demigod level or less, an opponent will come into being that is an equal counter to them. Thus, a 16 HD earth elemental would find itself facing a 16 HD air elemental, a fighter wielding a sword of sharpness might find themselves facing a troll with equal hit points, a neutral good monadic deva might find itself facing an arcanodaemon, etc. Needless to say, DM jurisdiction and careful planning must go into this situation. Defeated opponents disappear and will not assist other combatants, and triumphant invaders find themselves transported back to their plane of origin. If forced to combat, this deity will fire a blast of concordant energy each round that does 10 – 100 points of damage (no saving throw) to any creature within a 20-foot radius of its impact. Ka-Balahk is able to throw 24 time stop spells each day, and it can teleport up to 12 opponents/round (no save) to any location within the Inner and Outer Planes or upon Oerth. A +5 or better weapon would be required to inflict any harm upon this being, and it regenerates 10 hit points each round after taking damage. It is unharmed by vacuum, fire/heat, cold, electricity, poison, acid/alkali, negative energy, or positive energy attacks. It moves by” flying”, but is able to teleport at will to virtually anywhere in the Prime Material, Inner and Outer Planes. Ka-Balahk has the appearance of a vast black sphere, with what is apparently a white circular eye with a black pupil. A shimmering light green aura of flames surrounds its person, and it floats in the air. Even other greater deities experience a sense of awe when viewing this being. No clergy exists for this deity, and it grants no clerical powers to any professing to worship it. There is, however, a very small cabal of savants who wear this deity’s symbol as a medallion (“The Savants Who Seek In The Name Of Ka-Balahk”). They are neutral of bent, and seek lore of the multiverse. Their watchword is “Let what will be, be”.
|
|